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Author Topic: Why the first shot missed  (Read 34854 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #152 on: November 04, 2019, 10:50:00 AM »
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The image is over sized and may not be displaying fully. There two images on the top of collage. The first is a closeup of the pipe that would be the curved pipe from below. The ~2 in pipe is centered about 10” from the South wall. Just above and touching the pipe appears to be chipped cement or other material slightly mounded over the pipes and is chipped to form that irregular shape. The photo on top right would be the straight pipe from below. The bottom photo is rotated 90 degrees and shows the measures from the East wall.

I get roughly for the
straight pipe center 36” from East wall
straight pipe center 11.5” from South wall
bent pipe center 27.5” from East wall
bent pipe center  10” from South wall

Here is a full resolution view of the bent pipe and chip. Top edge is South. I don't think that chip contains a pipe edge, but I did not think at the time to check it closer.


For the SN pic many may be suitable for 3D anaglyphs. If you don't have a pair of cyan/red 3D glasses you might find some on Amazon pretty cheap. I wear glasses and found a pair of cyan/red clip-ons that work really well for me.

Thanks, now I understand. I was viewing this on my phone, which probably didn’t help (due to the small screen).

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #152 on: November 04, 2019, 10:50:00 AM »


Online James Hackerott

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #153 on: November 04, 2019, 02:52:32 PM »
The image is over sized and may not be displaying fully. There two images on the top of collage. The first is a closeup of the pipe that would be the curved pipe from below. The ~2 in pipe is centered about 10” from the South wall. Just above and touching the pipe appears to be chipped cement or other material slightly mounded over the pipes and is chipped to form that irregular shape. The photo on top right would be the straight pipe from below. The bottom photo is rotated 90 degrees and shows the measures from the East wall.

I get roughly for the
straight pipe center 36” from East wall
straight pipe center 11.5” from South wall
bent pipe center 27.5” from East wall
bent pipe center  10” from South wall

Here is a full resolution view of the bent pipe and chip. Top edge is South. I don't think that chip contains a pipe edge, but I did not think at the time to check it closer.


For the SN pic many may be suitable for 3D anaglyphs. If you don't have a pair of cyan/red 3D glasses you might find some on Amazon pretty cheap. I wear glasses and found a pair of cyan/red clip-ons that work really well for me.
I revised and corrected the annotation for the bottom image.. This should make it easier of others, and myself too, to visualize.



Online Charles Collins

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2020, 02:26:33 PM »
I found more corroboration of the first shot occurring before z-160 in the account of Clint Grant, photographer for Dallas Morning News. He was in camera car #2. In his 1993  c-span video description he said the as the car rounded the corner of Main and Houston the shots began. The camera car #2 was exiting the corner onto Houston Street at approximately z-133. This timing agrees with the other evidence that I have provided earlier in this thread...

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2020, 02:26:33 PM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #155 on: February 10, 2021, 08:53:59 AM »


In my model, the strike point for the Max Holland/Lost Bullet theory is on the outer arm of the traffic light assembly.

The seated shooter's left hand would have to hold the rifle with the trigger-guard housing to be clear of the pipes. Also the center of the rifle butt-plate is about four inches above the un-artictulated right shoulder. Unless the right shoulder rises some distance while pointing a rifle down, the shooter would have to standing.

This is academic as there is too much against a first shot as early as Max Holland has proposed.
Notice that Holland's drawing is wrong. The correct line of fire goes throo the collar for the 2 guy rods. A multi ricochet involving collar rods pipe (& even the signals) would explain the lead hitting the pavement & the 2 copper fragments ending up in the limo, & 1 fragment glancing off JFK's head.
If Oswald fired a clean miss, there would be a big crater in the road. And no good mechanism for 2 copper fragments to end up in the limo.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2021, 09:30:21 AM »
Notice that Holland's drawing is wrong. The correct line of fire goes throo the collar for the 2 guy rods. A multi ricochet involving collar rods pipe (& even the signals) would explain the lead hitting the pavement & the 2 copper fragments ending up in the limo, & 1 fragment glancing off JFK's head.
If Oswald fired a clean miss, there would be a big crater in the road. And no good mechanism for 2 copper fragments to end up in the limo.
Hi Marjan,

You say at z203 " two standing agents are starting to look back to Oswald"

Below is a close up of z207, four frames after z203. It's the last frame we see most of the agents in. I'm sure you'll agree that not one is looking back towards the TSBD, so I don't understand where you are getting the idea from that they are looking back:



From your notes can you reveal where you are getting the idea from there is a shot before z133.

Oh yeah...I asked you before to explain why none of the agents has reacted to a loud, explosive noise for over four seconds. What are your ideas on that?

Thought you might like to clear these points up  Thumb1:

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2021, 09:30:21 AM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #157 on: February 10, 2021, 10:13:06 AM »
Thought you might like to clear these points up  Thumb1:
Yes i did answer in your other thread. The Agents were confused etc.
Anyhow if u are correct that the first shot was later then there would still be a long delay to say Z255 if that is when the Altgen-6 pix is taken.
Conversely if u are correct then there would have to be a very short delay of say 3.0 sec (which is less than an acceptable say 5.0 sec) tween shot1 at say Z??? & shot2 at say Z218 (some say i think Z222).

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #158 on: March 13, 2023, 07:42:35 PM »
I revised and corrected the annotation for the bottom image.. This should make it easier of others, and myself too, to visualize.







Sorry, Charles. I haven't forgotten your request. My placement of the pipes is a visual guess. Obviously use at own risk.

I sent the Sixth Museum a request for measurements, and the curator, who's really helpful, told me just now that he will get back to me with true measurements when they access that area for maintenance. I'll PM those to you when I get them. Meanwhile you can use what I am using or build off it.

The westward pipe is a simple vertical. As I have it, the total height of the coupling is 3 1/4". I have the bottom of the coupling 8 13/16" above the floor (just make it 8 3/4" or 9", whatever). The coupling doesn't interfere with a hypothetical shooter; I put the coupling in there for the sake of completeness and haven't bothered with the bolts.

For the east pipe, I drew straight lines and angled them and placed them where I thought the center of the pipe ran. I then used SketchUp's "Follow-Me" tool to create the pipe by having a 2" circle follow the "path" of the lines. The Sketchup Tool decided I needed two elbows at each of the two bends. The closest any part of the first bend is to the floor is 13".

There is something wrong with my measurements. If the pipes are 2", then the planks have to be about 3". Or the planks are correct and the pipes needs to be a bit wider. Anyway, the key is how the westward pipe is relative to the window's masonry opening, which I think is fairly close now. That's the pipe that interferes.



I am trying to visualize the west conduit only, not concerned with the east conduit at this time. If I understand the meaning of your measurements, the west conduit would be slanting slightly away from the south wall as it rises towards the seventh floor. The difference being about 3-1/2” further away from the south wall at the top (9-1/8” minus the 5-5/8” at the 6th floor). It also appears to slant away from the east wall slightly by about 2-7/8” (34-7/8” minus the 32” estimate by Jerry). All of my estimated distances are to the nearest outside surfaces to the respective walls. Does the above seem to be reasonably accurate given the information that we currently have? Please let me know. Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2023, 07:44:14 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #158 on: March 13, 2023, 07:42:35 PM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #159 on: March 14, 2023, 08:21:36 PM »
Notice that Holland's drawing is wrong. The correct line of fire goes throo the collar for the 2 guy rods. A multi ricochet involving collar rods pipe (& even the signals) would explain the lead hitting the pavement & the 2 copper fragments ending up in the limo, & 1 fragment glancing off JFK's head.
If Oswald fired a clean miss, there would be a big crater in the road. And no good mechanism for 2 copper fragments to end up in the limo.
My above feb2021 wordage was early in my jfk accidental homicide study. I need to bring things up to date.
Today i know that Oswald's shot-1 was at about pseudo Z112, & ricocheted offa the western guyrod of the signal arm at Z113.
Holland said Z103 i think -- i am happy to split the difference.
Holland i think reckoned a ricochet offa the actual signals.
Today i know that the present owner of the original signals (Christopher) wrote that there is no bullet hole or dent in the signals.
Today i know that the main remnant slug of shot-1 made a keyhole shaped hole in the floor of the limo -- between the Connally's jumpseats.
Today i know that the lead splatter hit jfk in the top back right of his head (vizible in xrays).
Re my wordage that Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218 -- today i reckon it was at Z215-216, & hit jfk & Connally at Z218-219.
Hickey's accidental autoburst of at least 4 shots of his AR15 was at say Z300-Z312 -- hit jfk's head at Z312-313.

Re the pipes at the SN affecting Oswald's shot-1 -- i think the pipes might have affected his shot-2 moreso than his shot-1.