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Author Topic: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?  (Read 882 times)

Offline Jorn Frending

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Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« on: June 28, 2019, 12:08:23 AM »
While I remember, I'm still behind answering other threads ... :)

Some times we come across a simple fact which saves us time studying further about something which is more complicated.

I have stopped completely worrying about McMillan on Marina.

I'm not judging Marina in any way due to her particular circumstances.

About ten years ago or more when I was lurking on the lancer website I read a post by Debra Conway, the owner to the site.

She claimed to be a personal friend of Marina and that Marina had explained the reason for OSWALD TO POSSESS SEVERAL WALLETS which was the subject of the thread.

Well, Marina had explained that Oswald liked to place wallets at different locations and when people contacted him in order to return a wallet, Oswald and Marina would meet them and make friends.

Well, in case it would become necessary, Marina thus had a "plausible" explanation for Oswald's "multiple" wallets.

Perhaps Marina had been "coached" about what to say but it never became necessary. Then, by coincidence, years later and asked by Debra Conway, the story surfaces.

Since Debra Conway believed her, nobody on the website contested it.

Since then, personally I did not take further interest in Statements from Marina or McMillan on Marina ..., But that's just me of course.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 12:18:55 AM by Jorn Frending »

JFK Assassination Forum

Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« on: June 28, 2019, 12:08:23 AM »

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2019, 09:48:12 PM »
.....
I have stopped completely worrying about McMillan on Marina.

I'm not judging Marina in any way due to her particular circumstances.

About ten years ago or more when I was lurking on the lancer website I read a post by Debra Conway, the owner to the site.

She claimed to be a personal friend of Marina and that Marina had explained the reason for OSWALD TO POSSESS SEVERAL WALLETS which was the subject of the thread.

Well, Marina had explained that Oswald liked to place wallets at different locations and when people contacted him in order to return a wallet, Oswald and Marina would meet them and make friends.

Well, in case it would become necessary, Marina thus had a "plausible" explanation for Oswald's "multiple" wallets.

Perhaps Marina had been "coached" about what to say but it never became necessary. Then, by coincidence, years later and asked by Debra Conway, the story surfaces.

Since Debra Conway believed her, nobody on the website contested it.

Since then, personally I did not take further interest in Statements from Marina or McMillan on Marina ..., But that's just me of course.

Crickets, (no replies, so far...) huh? I know most are preoccupied with rifle and bag length and other well plowed ground hinting of
breakthrough discovery....for 56 years.

Please consider that WC witness Sam Ballen authored a book describing Priscilla MacMillan's first cousin, David C Davenport...
Macmillan testified to HSCA in 1978 she knew no CIA personnel, yet she participated in "delivering" Marina, in anticipation of
immediate release of the WCR, to MacMillan's first cousin, David.

MacMillan's denial can be viewed here, after she is warned of risk of perjury near bottom of immediately preceding page.:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95330&search=letter#relPageId=40&tab=page

Troubling me is MacMillan was impressively discreet and it just so happened her cousin David was covert CIA and the maternal grandfather
of David's five kids, George E Brewer, Jr, was commander of allied secret successful, (Norwegian) covert assassination teams during WWII.
(See supporting details at end of this post.)

Could handing over Marina for Observation by Davenport and his pal, Jerre Hastings, indicate the US intel community was genuinely
puzzled and was using Marina as a component of drafting an after action report of the Assassinations of JFK and LHO, or simply because
they were assissting  Priscilla MacMillan in a muzzling of Marina that would end up lasting until 1979, a year after publication of Marina & Lee?


Quote
......
Quote
Marina & Lee by Priscilla Johnson Macmillan
........


.......
I do find it curious that the man (Jerre Hastings) married to (Clark) Clifford's aunt Marguerite Bowman McAdams in late
1964 was a close friend of Priscilla's first cousin, David C Davenport, CIA, and performed as driver
and bodyguard of Priscilla and Marina.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60397&relPageId=146 and http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=60313&relPageId=49

20 October, 2001

Without Reservations: From Harlem to the End of the Santa Fe Trail
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0943734363


2-1/2 years later, Clark Cilfford's first cousin JoAnne McAdams
filed a lawsuit against that man, her stepfather Jerome Jerre Hastings Hasty, his friend David Davenport,
and several doctors for involuntarily committing her to the State of New Mexico mental hospital.

No one reacts to those facts because they do not know what to make of them despite the uncontested
facts that support all of that as true!....


Quote
https://www.dora.dmu.ac.uk/xmlui/bitstream/handle/2086/2421/Ian%20Herrington%20PhD.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
THE SPECIAL OPERATIONS EXECUTIVE IN NORWAY 1940-1945:
POLICY AND OPERATIONS IN THE STRATEGIC AND POLITICAL CONTEXT

Pg 20
 In 1996 a journalist Egil Ulateig published a book on
assassinations in Norway during the occupation, which caused a significant storm at
the time, particularly amongst war veterans and some historians. As a consequence of
what he considered to be the unreliability of Ulateig‟s work, Arnfinn Moland
produced his detailed analysis of the assasinations carried out by resistance groups
and SOE, a subject that owing to the impact it had on all those involved had been
largely avoided by professional historians.
He examines this contentious issue within
a legal and constitutional context, and argues it was a justified and necessary part of
defending the resistance movement in Norway against the constant threat from the
German and Norwegian security police.62...

Page 176
The SO section of OSS had therefore accepted that the whole of Norway was a
SOE sphere of operation and that it had to work with both SOE and Norwegian
military authorities. As a result in May 1943, Sir Frederic Cromwell from SO was
attached to SOE and joined the ANCC until April 1944 when Lt. Commander F.W.G.
Ungar Vetlesen replaced him.137
 Significantly, this meant that in the future SO could
and would not act independently anywhere in Norway, even in the north where it
eventually made its largest contribution. Importantly, therefore, any possibility of a
„crossing of lines‟ or duplication of effort was at least theoretically ruled out.
This arrangement was quickly replicated in Stockholm where it was agreed in
June 1943 that an American special operations base could be established. In August
Major (later Lt. Colonel) George Brewer visited the city
to commence preparations,138
and in October 1943 an covenant was drawn up for the operation of this base, named
„Westfield‟, which was eventually located at the American Legation. It was also
accepted that all OSS missions out of Stockholm would be considered joint SOE/SO
operations, that consultations would be held in advance and that there would be a full
exchange of personnel and equipment when possible.139
By mid 1943, therefore, SO had not only subordinated itself to SOE and FO
partnership, but become part of the network of organisations that played such a
significant role in shaping SOE plans and operations in Norway. From this point it
Footnote, bottom of Page 176
139 The „Westfield Mission‟ eventually had five officers, including its head Major George Brewer
(Apollo) and Hans Ericksen (Vaudeville), who was responsible for Norwegian affairs.
PRO: paper
entitled „Project Westfield‟, 23 October 1943, addressed to Brigadier E.E. Mockler-Ferryman (SOE)
and Lt. Col. J. F. Haskell, (SO) in HS2/134. History of the „Stockholm Mission‟, by Miss Janet Gow,
December 1945, in HS7/190.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marthinsen
Karl Alfred Nicolai Marthinsen (sometimes spelled Karl Martinsen) (25 October 1896, Karlsøy – 8 February 1945, Blindern) was the Norwegian commander of Statspolitiet and Sikkerhetspolitiet in Norway during the Nazi occupation during World War II.....
....He was made police general and became a key liaison between Norwegian police forces, the Quisling cabinet, and German Gestapo. He also became leader of the nationwide, paramilitary Hird organization.

Marthinsen quickly earned notoriety as the leader of the all-Norwegian police force. He played an instrumental role in implementing the Holocaust in Norway, resulting in the murder of more than 700 Jews and the brutal mistreatment of many more; he was also known to take a relaxed view of legal process, and tolerated if not encouraged torture among his forces.[1][2][4]

Death and reprisals
Marthinsen was assassinated by the Norwegian resistance group Milorg as part of Operation Buzzard, acting on orders from the government in exile.
A team of trained gunmen waited for his car behind a woodpile near his home in Blindernveien 74 in Oslo. The car had just started to move when they opened fire with automatic weapons, instantly killing Marthinsen in the passenger seat and lightly wounding his driver. Documents disclosed after the war indicate that the political leadership ordered the assassination to prevent Marthinsen from carrying through his plans to enlist Norwegian paramilitary forces to violently subvert the expected capitulation of Nazi Germany in Norway.

Reichskommissar in Norway Josef Terboven convened the same day a meeting with both the Norwegian and German administration in occupied Norway, including SS commander Wilhelm Rediess, head of Sicherheitspolizei, Heinrich Fehlis, Vidkun Quisling, police minister Jonas Lie and minister of justice Sverre Riisnæs. Terboven argued that the assassination threatened the credibility of the Nazi regime and requested that 75 Norwegians be executed in retaliation. The Norwegian leaders objected but were overruled, but in subsequent discussions in the following day, the number was reduced to 34. A list of Norwegians was submitted, and those on the list were condemned.

Norwegian officers were coerced into carrying through the executions. Some accounts place Riisnæs at the executions visibly intoxicated, using his service pistol to participate in the execution. A press release announced that 34 were killed by firing squad, but it turned out that five individuals were kept in prison and discovered after the war.[5]

The extent and severity of the reprisals shocked the Norwegian population and government-in-exile, resulting in a general moratorium against targeted killings of high-ranking Nazi officials.[6]
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 10:19:37 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Jorn Frending

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2019, 10:29:49 PM »
Thanks Tom, the McMillan story was a big thing on the Lancer forum, unfortunately I have no recollections in writing.

And of course, the occupation of Denmark and Norway by the Nazis and the sad Nazi collaboration on behalf of some locals is part of my country's history.

This could be one of the reasons for both countries uncompromised NATO adherence, having had both countries a Secretary general of NATO.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2019, 10:29:49 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2019, 10:37:11 PM »
While I remember, I'm still behind answering other threads ... :)

Some times we come across a simple fact which saves us time studying further about something which is more complicated.

I have stopped completely worrying about McMillan on Marina.

I'm not judging Marina in any way due to her particular circumstances.

About ten years ago or more when I was lurking on the lancer website I read a post by Debra Conway, the owner to the site.

She claimed to be a personal friend of Marina and that Marina had explained the reason for OSWALD TO POSSESS SEVERAL WALLETS which was the subject of the thread.

Well, Marina had explained that Oswald liked to place wallets at different locations and when people contacted him in order to return a wallet, Oswald and Marina would meet them and make friends.

Well, in case it would become necessary, Marina thus had a "plausible" explanation for Oswald's "multiple" wallets.

Perhaps Marina had been "coached" about what to say but it never became necessary. Then, by coincidence, years later and asked by Debra Conway, the story surfaces.

Since Debra Conway believed her, nobody on the website contested it.

Since then, personally I did not take further interest in Statements from Marina or McMillan on Marina ..., But that's just me of course.

Could Marina have been coached?

There's not an iota of doubt in my mind that is exactly what CIA agent Priscilla McMillan was doing in the spring of 1964...... Marina was probably totally unaware that McMillan was feeding her ideas........

Offline Jorn Frending

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2019, 10:49:15 PM »
Could Marina have been coached?

There's not an iota of doubt in my mind that is exactly what CIA agent Priscilla McMillan was doing in the spring of 1964...... Marina was probably totally unaware that McMillan was feeding her ideas........

Hello Walt, pleased to see that you are still going strong  :)

What I'm trying to find out is if at top level the only interest was to eliminate any trace of Oswald's intelligence connections but that only at a much lower level it was known what was really going on ...

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2019, 10:49:15 PM »

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2019, 11:15:59 PM »
Hello Walt, pleased to see that you are still going strong  :)

What I'm trying to find out is if at top level the only interest was to eliminate any trace of Oswald's intelligence connections but that only at a much lower level it was known what was really going on ...

......

Troubling me is MacMillan was impressively discreet and it just so happened her cousin David was covert CIA and the maternal grandfather
of David's five kids, George E Brewer, Jr, was commander of allied secret successful, (Norwegian) covert assassination teams during WWII.
(See supporting details at end of this post.)

Could handing over Marina for Observation by Davenport and his pal, Jerre Hastings, indicate the US intel community was genuinely
puzzled and was using Marina as a component of drafting an after action report of the Assassinations of JFK and LHO, or simply because
they were assissting  Priscilla MacMillan in a muzzling of Marina that would end up lasting until 1979, a year after publication of Marina & Lee?
......

Ms. MacMillan was allegedly simply taking a long time to write a book about an assassin of the POTUS and his wife.
Her first cousin David, however, was according to her, simply coming to her aid in shielding Marina from inquiring press, Sept. to Dec., 1964.
David Davenport, OTOH, was at that time finishing up divorce proceedings also involving the future status  of his relationship with five
children of that marriage, but had just quit his New Mexico job as a banking officer to resettle in a new job in Anchorage directing the
Alaska Development Corp., and there is this, linked to Davenport assistant Jerre Hastings and Hasting's then wife's nephew, Clark Clifford.

Do the coincidences dilute the research or obscure the meaning of it?
....Based on the research of John Newmam, I was able to find that Priscilla Livingston Johnson, born in Stockholm in 1922 as John Newman pointed out,
served in OSS in London in WWII and married soon to be CIA officer in 1945, Thomas McCoy, who later "volunteered" along with his best friend Tom Finney in the 1968 presidential campaign of Eugene McCarthy.....
.....
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293

Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK. (JOSH REYNOLDS/JOSH REYNOLDS PHOTO)
..........

Quote
OSS Against the Reich: The World War II Diaries of Colonel David ...
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=087338427X
David Kirkpatrick Este Bruce, ‎Nelson D. Lankford - 1991 - ‎Biography & Autobiography
Hallett Johnson ( 1 888-1 968) was the State Department's assistant chief, Division of Defense Materials. His daughter, Priscilla Livingston Johnson, was a...

Oswald and the CIA: The Documented Truth About the Unknown Relationship ...
By John Newman


U.S., Consular Reports of Births, 1910-1949 > Alphabetical > Jamieson - Johnson


Eight years have passed and Priscilla's name is still mixed up in John Simkin's article with the name of CIA's Tom McCoy's wife,
Priscilla Livingston Johnson McCoy, the name John Newman described as having a CIA file intermingled in 1956 with the file (2) of the person Simkin was trying to cover in his page. Ironically, Tom McCoy went to work for the "clean for Gene" McCarthy campaign in spring, 1968, and he shared this about his fellow campaign volunteer, the law partner of one of my favorites, Clark M. Clifford.:

Quote
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKjohnsonPR.htm
Priscilla Johnson McMillan
Priscilla Livingston Johnson was born in Glen Cove, New York, on 19th July, 1928.....

http://johnsafer.com/library/articles.html#storie10


Quote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/05/AR2009120502999_2.html
Thomas F. McCoy CIA officer, political consultant

Thomas F. McCoy, 91, a retired CIA officer who later had a long career as a political consultant, died Nov. 25 of heart disease at his home in Chevy Chase.....
......Survivors include his wife of 64 years, Priscilla Johnson McCoy of Chevy Chase; four children


« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 11:59:25 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Rick Plant

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2019, 02:02:43 AM »
The problem with all these unconfirmed reports is that we don't know if they are true or not.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2019, 02:02:43 AM »

Offline Denis Pointing

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2019, 10:33:39 PM »
While I remember, I'm still behind answering other threads ... :)

Some times we come across a simple fact which saves us time studying further about something which is more complicated.

I have stopped completely worrying about McMillan on Marina.

I'm not judging Marina in any way due to her particular circumstances.

About ten years ago or more when I was lurking on the lancer website I read a post by Debra Conway, the owner to the site.

She claimed to be a personal friend of Marina and that Marina had explained the reason for OSWALD TO POSSESS SEVERAL WALLETS which was the subject of the thread.

Well, Marina had explained that Oswald liked to place wallets at different locations and when people contacted him in order to return a wallet, Oswald and Marina would meet them and make friends.

Well, in case it would become necessary, Marina thus had a "plausible" explanation for Oswald's "multiple" wallets.

Perhaps Marina had been "coached" about what to say but it never became necessary. Then, by coincidence, years later and asked by Debra Conway, the story surfaces.

Since Debra Conway believed her, nobody on the website contested it.

Since then, personally I did not take further interest in Statements from Marina or McMillan on Marina ..., But that's just me of course.

Well, somebody was full of BS, that's for sure. You automatically suspect Marina or McMillan, ever wondered if it was Debra Conway?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2019, 10:33:39 PM »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2019, 01:47:49 AM »
If you were going to coach Marina wouldn't you at least have Marina;

Say Oswald hated Kennedy.
Say Oswald practised with his rifle regularly.
Say Oswald and herself would often go hunting and Oswald was very accurate.
Say Oswald left on the 22nd with a long package.
Say that the rifle in the garage was definitely the rifle at the archives.

But as we know Marina never did any of this and I reckon in reality her WC testimony was about as honest as she could be, simply because she had no way of knowing what other evidence was out there, so she just told the truth. She wanted to stay in America and she knew she was innocent.

JohnM


Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2019, 02:55:13 AM »
If you were going to coach Marina wouldn't you at least have Marina;

Say Oswald hated Kennedy.
Say Oswald practised with his rifle regularly.
Say Oswald and herself would often go hunting and Oswald was very accurate.
Say Oswald left on the 22nd with a long package.
Say that the rifle in the garage was definitely the rifle at the archives.

But as we know Marina never did any of this and I reckon in reality her WC testimony was about as honest as she could be, simply because she had no way of knowing what other evidence was out there, so she just told the truth. She wanted to stay in America and she knew she was innocent.

JohnM

What are the rules, so I can play, too? In an environment in which authors of the 60s thru pre-internet era still drive assumptions, is there any room for the facts I have presented, over and over, for the last seven years.

Priscilla and her publisher Harpers bottled Marina from summer, 1964, until 1978, one year after Priscilla's book was available to readers. This is unimpeachable fact.



This was asserted under oath.:
Quote
http://archive.is/esTuB
...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95330&relPageId=42


......

In September, 1964, Priscilla delivered Marina to her first cousin in Sante Fe, NM.:

Quote
https://www.geni.com/people/David-Coit-Davenport-Sr/6000000000291831761
"Oct 02, 2001 — DAVID COIT DAVENPORT Left this world for freedom on September 28, 2001 at 80 years of age. David first came to Santa Fe years ago, arriving from New York with his parents in 1931. Though he later left for school and lived in a variety of cities, from Washington, D.C. to Anchorage, AK, he always returned here, to his family home.

In Santa Fe, he has lived for the past 37 years with his loving wife and partner, Anne Davenport. David was a man of education and erudition, holding degrees from Princeton University (A.B.), Columbia University (J.D.), and U.N.M. (Ph.D.). His career encompassed a number of fields, from intelligence to law to teaching to banking....



Davenport's sidekick, Hasty-Hastings, was married at that time to Clark McAdams Clifford's aunt.
Clifford's other uncle was the employer of James Phelan for at least ten years, until 1945.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Clifford
Clark McAdams Clifford (December 25, 1906 – October 10, 1998)
....
Chair of the President's Intelligence Advisory Board
In office
April 23, 1963 – February 29, 1968
President   John F. Kennedy
Lyndon B. Johnson....

Earl Warren personally knew Declan Ford's brother and held the Ford brothers' late prosecutor father in high esteem.

No one disputes any of those details, they simply post as if they are not material facts.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 03:23:56 AM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Marina's credibility ..., Could she have been coached?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2019, 02:55:13 AM »

 

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