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Author Topic: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?  (Read 130985 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #656 on: February 17, 2020, 03:22:20 PM »
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The wooden stock was absorbent. Prints on the metal trigger-guard housing were noticed and professionally photographed by Day.

Is that a term for when he claims something he wasn't told and didn't read on the rifle?

   Mr. BALL - In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police Department that afternoon,
                     you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser bolt action?
   Mr. WEITZMAN - In a glance, that's what it looked like.
   Mr. BALL - That's what it looked like did you say that or someone else say that?
   Mr. WEITZMAN - No; I said that. I thought it was one.


CE 399c?

The wooden stock was absorbent.

This simply isn't true....The wooden stocks of the carcanos were oil finished ( so they wouldn't absorb moisture) 

Prints on the metal trigger-guard housing were noticed and professionally photographed by Day.

 PARTIAL  Prints on the metal trigger-guard housing were noticed and professionally photographed by Day.

The fact that the unidentifiable partial prints were found up near the stock  attests to the fact that the rifle was hastily wiped to destroy any finger prints on the rifle.
( the area is a recess and somewhat protected by the nearby stock)

And this hasty wiping indicates that it was NOT Lee Oswald who wiped the rifle.....  Only an idiot would argue that Lee Oswald would have wiped down the unusual and easily traceable rifle that was owned by Lee Oswald.    It wouldn't make any sense ..... finger prints or no fingerprints the rifle could easily be traced to Lee.

However...The person who had stolen the rifle and planted it, to incriminate Lee Oswald most certainly would have wanted to be sure that they had not left their prints on the rifle.


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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #656 on: February 17, 2020, 03:22:20 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #657 on: February 17, 2020, 04:06:13 PM »
The so-called crack is certainly south of the center of the brick column, which is centered on 13'.





Do you seriously believe that you can measure distances on a photograph?

You have shown that the rifle was 2' 4" south of the row of boxes that formed the south wall of the aisle at the top of the stairs.   However this does not take into account that there were boxes stacked up about three or four feet high......( Boone had to squeeze between the west wall and the stacked up boxes ) So anybody who would attempt to place a rifle on the floor at 15' 4" would not only have had to reach across a 28 inch span, he would have had to have lowered the rifle about three feet down to the floor.  ...and slide it beneath the wooden pallet.    ( This would have been a feat for Plasticman)    No human could have placed that rifle beneath the pallet while standing in the aisle at the top of the stairs.... THIS IS A FACT!   

The fact that the rifle had been carefully hidden beneath that pallet is proof that the rifle was placed the BEFORE the shooting.....
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 04:20:06 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #658 on: February 17, 2020, 04:55:30 PM »
The wooden stock was absorbent.

This simply isn't true....The wooden stocks of the carcanos were oil finished ( so they wouldn't absorb moisture) 

    "Not every contact of a. finger or palm leaves a latent print. For example,
     if the surface is not susceptible to a latent print, if the finger or palm had
     no perspiration, or if the perspiration was mostly water and had evaporated,
     no print will be found.
        ...
     The wood and metal of the rifle was absorbent, and not conducive to
     recording a good print. However, the Dallas police developed by powder
     some faint ridge formations on the metal magazine housing in front of
     the trigger ..."
        -- Warren Report, p565

I think metal is generally less absorbent that wood; why prints were found on the trigger-guard housing.

 

What evidence is there that the Carcano's wood stock was "oil finished"?

See: "Firearm Factoids: Does a Lack of Fingerprints Exonerate Oswald?" ( Link )

Quote
Prints on the metal trigger-guard housing were noticed and professionally photographed by Day.

 PARTIAL  Prints on the metal trigger-guard housing were noticed and professionally photographed by Day.

The fact that the unidentifiable partial prints were found up near the stock  attests to the fact that the rifle was hastily wiped to destroy any finger prints on the rifle.
( the area is a recess and somewhat protected by the nearby stock)

The trigger-guard housing is not recessed. So by your reasoning, that means the rifle wasn't wiped down.

Quote
And this hasty wiping indicates that it was NOT Lee Oswald who wiped the rifle.....  Only an idiot would argue that Lee Oswald would have wiped down the unusual and easily traceable rifle that was owned by Lee Oswald.    It wouldn't make any sense ..... finger prints or no fingerprints the rifle could easily be traced to Lee.

However...The person who had stolen the rifle and planted it, to incriminate Lee Oswald most certainly would have wanted to be sure that they had not left their prints on the rifle.

You would think someone planting evidence like that would be wearing gloves in the first place.

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #658 on: February 17, 2020, 04:55:30 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #659 on: February 17, 2020, 05:21:29 PM »
    "Not every contact of a. finger or palm leaves a latent print. For example,
     if the surface is not susceptible to a latent print, if the finger or palm had
     no perspiration, or if the perspiration was mostly water and had evaporated,
     no print will be found.
        ...
     The wood and metal of the rifle was absorbent, and not conducive to
     recording a good print. However, the Dallas police developed by powder
     some faint ridge formations on the metal magazine housing in front of
     the trigger ..."
        -- Warren Report, p565

I think metal is generally less absorbent that wood; why prints were found on the trigger-guard housing.

 

What evidence is there that the Carcano's wood stock was "oil finished"?

See: "Firearm Factoids: Does a Lack of Fingerprints Exonerate Oswald?" ( Link )

The trigger-guard housing is not recessed. So by your reasoning, that means the rifle wasn't wiped down.

You would think someone planting evidence like that would be wearing gloves in the first place.

Riiiiight!....  You've got excellent 20 / 20 hindsight.   

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #660 on: February 17, 2020, 08:13:48 PM »


Do you seriously believe that you can measure distances on a photograph?

You have shown that the rifle was 2' 4" south of the row of boxes that formed the south wall of the aisle at the top of the stairs.   However this does not take into account that there were boxes stacked up about three or four feet high......( Boone had to squeeze between the west wall and the stacked up boxes ) So anybody who would attempt to place a rifle on the floor at 15' 4" would not only have had to reach across a 28 inch span, he would have had to have lowered the rifle about three feet down to the floor.  ...and slide it beneath the wooden pallet.    ( This would have been a feat for Plasticman)    No human could have placed that rifle beneath the pallet while standing in the aisle at the top of the stairs.... THIS IS A FACT!   

The fact that the rifle had been carefully hidden beneath that pallet is proof that the rifle was placed the BEFORE the shooting.....

I'm not much good at  measuring distances on photographs but one doesn't need to be in order to know that my placement of the rifle is right. Just compare the two photos that I previously linked to. Zoom in on each of them and look closely at the boxes and the printing and stamps on them. The rifle was not placed beneath a pallet.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49607/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338775/m1/1/

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #660 on: February 17, 2020, 08:13:48 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #661 on: February 17, 2020, 09:44:44 PM »


The wooden pallet at lower-right seems to have its closed-in side running West-East. Would make it difficult for Weitzman to see a rifle underneath it.


The other two pallets with the projections are "wing-type" pallets.



I'm wondering if Weitzman saw the rifle while looking between the large gap of the stacked cartons on the pallets (upper-center of background).

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #662 on: February 17, 2020, 10:25:58 PM »


The wooden pallet at lower-right seems to have its closed-in side running West-East. Would make it difficult for Weitzman to see a rifle underneath it.


The other two pallets with the projections are "wing-type" pallets.



I'm wondering if Weitzman saw the rifle while looking between the large gap of the stacked cartons on the pallets (upper-center of background).

I'm wondering if Weitzman saw the rifle while looking between the large gap of the stacked cartons on the pallets

Why wonder?.....Just read what Weitzman testified....

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was looking under.
Mr. BALL - Looking from the top side of this picture?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat.

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #662 on: February 17, 2020, 10:25:58 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #663 on: February 18, 2020, 12:15:36 AM »
I'm wondering if Weitzman saw the rifle while looking between the large gap of the stacked cartons on the pallets

Why wonder?.....Just read what Weitzman testified....

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was looking under.
Mr. BALL - Looking from the top side of this picture?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat.

    "I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he [Boone] was looking
     on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said,
     "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it."
        -- Weitzman

Interesting. If the rifle is beneath the pallet, how can Boone (on top of the pallet) see through the stacked books to the floor?

    "Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under
     the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books.
     I believe there were more books in here."
        -- Weitzman

Hmm. "I was behind this section of books"? He's probably crouched down near the floor ("I was looking under the flat") when he saw the rifle trough the gap between the stacked cartons ("I was behind this section of books").

    "at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun"
        -- Weitzman

Doesn't sound like there's a pallet and a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.



CE 515 (marked by Boone)
Mr. BALL - Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes
          where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Boone's arrow point to the line of boxes where the rifle appears in the Crime Lab pictures.



    "I left Fritz in charge while Deputy Boone and I began looking for the weapon.
        ...
     Boone was about six to eight feet from me when he said, "I see it!"

     I stepped over and looked between the cartons and said, "Sure, that's the weapon!"

        -- Luke Mooney, in "No More Silence" (Snead, 1998)

"Looked between the cartons".

Mr. BELIN - How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr. CRAIG - About 8-foot.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over to the--uh--luster of boxes where he was standing and
          looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.
Mr. BELIN - When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe
          which way the boxes were?
Mr. CRAIG - There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon,
          and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I
          remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the
          north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under---uh---or up
          tight against 'em---you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course,
           both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em.
          You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN - You are gesturing with your hand there---would you say that the boxes,
           then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular
          "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN - And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Well, it-it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in
          particularly was about---uh---oh, was about 5-foot.

"Looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor". Sounds like they're standing South of the pallets of stacked cartons and looking northward through that gap:



Gap between stacked cartons on pallets is upper center in background.