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Author Topic: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?  (Read 131034 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #352 on: June 28, 2019, 11:52:13 PM »
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See how little of the rope is hanging down is in 133A compared to the others.

The rope sling is gripped in the hand holding the rifle in 133A. We only see the rope strands hanging down from where the end of the rope is tied into the side swivel, which is on the side of the rifle not photographed.

If everything photographed perfectly, Elizabeth Warren would look like Disney's Pocahontas.

C'mon Jerry..... Get serious.....  I know you're far too smart to believe that there really is a an actual rope sling on the Caracano in Ce 133A.

PS...  My eyes aren't as good as they once were but.... Even Ol Unca Walt Disney couldn't make Ms Warren look like Pocahontas.....

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #352 on: June 28, 2019, 11:52:13 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #353 on: June 29, 2019, 01:05:20 AM »
C'mon Jerry..... Get serious.....  I know you're far too smart to believe that there really is a an actual rope sling on the Caracano in Ce 133A.

PS...  My eyes aren't as good as they once were but.... Even Ol Unca Walt Disney couldn't make Ms Warren look like Pocahontas.....



Here's a lightened version of 133B that happens to show up the rope sling and its ties into the side-swivels. The rope span varies in width because it may be flattened or doubled.



133A shows the loose strands at the fore-stock, darkened because of shade. One end of the span of rope hangs down from the hand that holds it to the rifle. This was the last of the photographs and Oswald was switching the rifle over and advancing the film, so some opportunity to accidentally get the sling between his hand and the rifle.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #354 on: June 29, 2019, 02:28:24 AM »


Here's a lightened version of 133B that happens to show up the rope sling and its ties into the side-swivels. The rope span varies in width because it may be flattened or doubled.



133A shows the loose strands at the fore-stock, darkened because of shade. One end of the span of rope hangs down from the hand that holds it to the rifle. This was the last of the photographs and Oswald was switching the rifle over and advancing the film, so some opportunity to accidentally get the sling between his hand and the rifle.


C'mnon Jerry....Don't change the subject!.....   We were discussing CE 133A PERIOD!

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #354 on: June 29, 2019, 02:28:24 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #355 on: June 29, 2019, 02:33:23 AM »
its the misaligned scope that really bugs me.

If its a rifle ordered by conspirators, mimicking Oswalds handwriting, and sent to his P.0.Box, and they picked it up, they would have had plenty time to practice with rifle, make sure scope IS aligned, if its a defective or cheap scope, they could have replaced it with better quality scope.

Better yet, why not just order a better quality rifle all together, maybe even a semi auto, and make THAT rifle seem like it was Oswalds rifle? It would have been a LOT easier than having use a 2nd gunman cause the MC rifle bolt tends to stick and the scope doesn't hold its zero, thus requiring using iron sights instead.


So this seems to lead to the  following alternatives:

1. Oswald actually ordered the cheap MC rifle and the scope WAS poor quality and very well may have been misaligned severely if Oswald purposely left out a shim required to adjust the mount. If the conspirators stole the rifle the night before, either from Paines garage, or Oswalds boarding house, they would not likely know how bad the scope drifted or how it could not be adjusted without the  shim. They didn't have time to practice with the rifle either. This would  probably have required having at least a 2nd shooter with better rifle to make sure get the kill shot, should the conspirator using the MC rifle be unable to do so.

2. Some other MC rifle was quickly found within about 50 minutes after the shooting, and was placed in the boxes because NO rifle was found on the 6th floor. Where the conspirators could get an MC rifle so quickly is the question. Possibly General Walker had a surplus supply of MC rifles or CIA had some in storage. The rifle was planted after the fact, once it became known that Oswald was a missing employee and this particular employee was none other than the notorious defector Marine the FBI had already been keeping surveillance on. Hoover Memo directive then guides the further focus on selecting Oswald as the lone nut and no other conspirators involved.

3. Oswald is one of the shooters if not the only shooter, and purposely left the scope misaligned, having practiced using irons sights zeroed at 200 meters, knowing how to adjust for closer targets at 50 to 100 meters distant.
\ He left the rifle on the 6th floor, figuring once its found, because of the poor quality scope misalinged, it would be easy to argue it was a setup if they did trace rifle to himself. (which he may have thought they could not).

4. Oswald is a partial involved dupe, and brought his MC rifle into TSBD on Friday Nov 22/63  to give or sell to someone else, who then went up to 6th floor to use it to shoot JFK, and left it there to frame Oswald.


Offline Tom Scully

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #356 on: June 29, 2019, 09:56:09 AM »
its the misaligned scope that really bugs me.

If its a rifle ordered by conspirators, mimicking Oswalds handwriting, and sent to his P.0.Box, and they picked it up, they would have had plenty time to practice with rifle, make sure scope IS aligned, if its a defective or cheap scope, they could have replaced it with better quality scope.

Better yet, why not just order a better quality rifle all together, maybe even a semi auto, and make THAT rifle seem like it was Oswalds rifle? It would have been a LOT easier than having use a 2nd gunman cause the MC rifle bolt tends to stick and the scope doesn't hold its zero, thus requiring using iron sights instead.


So this seems to lead to the  following alternatives:

1. Oswald actually ordered the cheap MC rifle and the scope WAS poor quality and very well may have been misaligned severely if Oswald purposely left out a shim required to adjust the mount. If the conspirators stole the rifle the night before, either from Paines garage, or Oswalds boarding house, they would not likely know how bad the scope drifted or how it could not be adjusted without the  shim. They didn't have time to practice with the rifle either. This would  probably have required having at least a 2nd shooter with better rifle to make sure get the kill shot, should the conspirator using the MC rifle be unable to do so.

2. Some other MC rifle was quickly found within about 50 minutes after the shooting, and was placed in the boxes because NO rifle was found on the 6th floor. Where the conspirators could get an MC rifle so quickly is the question. Possibly General Walker had a surplus supply of MC rifles or CIA had some in storage. The rifle was planted after the fact, once it became known that Oswald was a missing employee and this particular employee was none other than the notorious defector Marine the FBI had already been keeping surveillance on. Hoover Memo directive then guides the further focus on selecting Oswald as the lone nut and no other conspirators involved.

3. Oswald is one of the shooters if not the only shooter, and purposely left the scope misaligned, having practiced using irons sights zeroed at 200 meters, knowing how to adjust for closer targets at 50 to 100 meters distant.
\ He left the rifle on the 6th floor, figuring once its found, because of the poor quality scope misalinged, it would be easy to argue it was a setup if they did trace rifle to himself. (which he may have thought they could not).

4. Oswald is a partial involved dupe, and brought his MC rifle into TSBD on Friday Nov 22/63  to give or sell to someone else, who then went up to 6th floor to use it to shoot JFK, and left it there to frame Oswald.

Try embracing more of the details and maybe you'll understand and then agree the body of facts indicates the mystery was designed to
be confusing to the point of nonsensical or the pertinent facts are impossible to glean because they are shrouded in random coincidence, no matter how unlikely it seems to theorists familiar with the Warren Report details, HSCA, ARRB, and the half century of journalism,
independent research published or presented online. Those with little familiarity of the details beyond viewing JFK the movie may be even
more resistant to the irrelevance coincidence can make of over emphasized facts.

I cannot tell for sure what is or is not random coincidence or deliberate distraction planted by conspirators, which witnesses were honest
and accurate enough to have given relevant testimony of "you can take that to the bank" reliability, or which LEO were sincerely doing job related assassination investigation vs obstructing or participating by helping to position Ruby in the DPD garage basement.

This leaves the most reliable alternative, keep digging so at the least you'll gain awareness of what you don't yet know but might
learn the right questions to ask. Even coming up with influential proof a long accepted explanation for an early controversy is inaccurate cpuld
be considered further progress.

You began your post by mentioning the useless state of the scope found mounted on the alleged rifle assassination rifle. Researchers tend
to underemphasize what cannot be explained....why talk about it if it seems to make no sense or seems indecipherable.

In response to the Assassination of JFK, as in the aftermath of 9/11, responders expect to receive reports of claims by emotionally disturbed
individuals some sincere but delusional and others who lie related with behavorial disorder. The call from Ralph Yates reporting an encounter with a curtain rods wielding hitchhiker with an alleged focus on shooting a rifle from a tall building shortly before the assassination and in the vicinity of the TSBD seems likely an example of delusion of a crank caller. My research reveals Yates's birth mother, Bernice Gordon, and
Ralph's father Jimmie Yates experienced the sudden death of Ralph's two year old brother shortly after Bernice became pregnant with Ralph.
The maariage did not survive and Ralph ended up living with his father who soon remarried.
In addition, there was a series of adults of Ralph's family, according to testimony of family members, challenged by E.D. and or mental illness.
Ralph happened to deteriorate to the point he was referred through Parkland Hospital emergency department for immediate confinement in a
local mental hospital (Rusk State Hospital where he remained until his 1975 death, diagnosed with "schizophrenia, paranoid type".

Dial Ryder also made a call to assassination responders... his call connects him to a curio dominant in the investigation, seemingly useless
or easily determined to faked ID cards alleged found by LEO in Oswald's wallet(s).

Is this seeing the forest for the trees? Why instead, was a more thorough background check of Dial Ryder not conducted?
Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=388&search=ryder%20and%20scope
Wesley Liebeler vs. the Warren Commission
by: Griffith, Michael T.
JFK Assassination Web Page: jfk.miketgriffith.com

The Repair Tag

b. I think the degree of doubt about the authenticity of the repair tag is overstated. (11 HSCA 235; 9/14/64 memo)

To go back for a moment to the second rifle section: In the third full paragraph it states, "On November 24, Ryder and Greener discussed at length the possibility" that Oswald had been there, but "Ryder did not mention the tag to his employer." I know of no evidence that Ryder and Greener talked on the 24th.

If they did not, the next sentence must be changed or cut.

The next sentence is a good example of what happens in the "rewrite" process. It says incorrectly, that on November 25 Ryder told the FBI that Greener did not remember the tag, although he had not called the tag to Greener's attention. The original sentence said, correctly, that Greener "did not remember the transaction represented by the repair tag..."

The next sentence says the FBI was directed to Ryder by anonymous phone calls. Not so. They were directed to the Irving Sports Shop and would very likely have talked to Greener, but he could not be found by the agent on November 25, 1963, when he went to the shop. (11 HSCA 236; 9/14/64 memo)


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=45&search=ryder_and+scope#relPageId=238&tab=page


Remember this?


The FBI or even WC or HSCA had all of the details necessary to learn Bowen/Grossi's son, Glen was Dial Ryder's nephew...
Fleda Ryder married Bowen who was using an alias even on his son Glen's birth certificate. Fleda divorced Bowen and then
married Mantooth, an ex-con who had served time in federal prison for burglarizing post offices for cash, postal money order
blanks and the machines printing and key punching the amount of each money order.

In 1969, Bowen stole a travel trailer in Oregon and towed it to Texas where Roy Mantooth was investigated for possessing it.



Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Eatherly#Later_life
Claude Robert Eatherly (October 2, 1918 – July 1, 1978) was an officer in the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II, and the pilot of a weather reconnaissance aircraft Straight Flush that supported the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan, August 6, 1945.....
....Later Life
...Eatherly claimed to have become horrified by his participation in the Hiroshima bombing, and hopeless at the possibility of repenting for or earning forgiveness for willfully extinguishing so many lives and causing so much pain. He tried speaking out with pacifist groups, sending parts of his paycheck to Hiroshima, writing letters of apology, and once or twice may have attempted suicide. At one point "he set out to try to discredit the popular myth of the war hero [by] committing petty crimes from which he derived no benefit: he was tried for various forgeries and forged a check for a small amount and contributed the money to a fund for the children of Hiroshima. He held up banks and broke into post offices without ever taking anything."[2][page needed] He was convicted of forgery in New Orleans, Louisiana and served one year between 1954 and 1955 for the crime. He was also convicted of breaking and entering in West Texas. He then became a salesman in a garage and might have attempted suicide again by drug. In 1959 he avoided prosecution for robbery by entering the Veterans Administration Hospital in Waco, Texas for many months.[3] Some think he committed antisocial acts because of schizophrenia or anxiety disorder.[citation needed]..

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&relPageId=58&search=bowen_and fleda


Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767/fleta-l_-mantooth
   14 Aug 2008 (aged 85)
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
BURIAL   Restland Cemetery
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
Fleta was the daughter of Homer Richard and Magdalena Jeanetta (Baehr) Ryder and raised with one brother and six sisters. She married Roy Lee Mantooth December 13, 1963, in Albany, Texas. He preceded her in death on March 10, 1979.
......
At time of death she was survived by one son, Glenn Lewis Mantooth and wife, Nicole of Abilene, Texas; two daughters, Dixie Kirby and husband DeWayne of Olney, Texas and Gypsie Fomby and husband Dale of Clyde, Texas; one brother, Dial Ryder of Irving, Texas; four sisters, Magdelene Beanblossom of Decatur, Illinois, Iseaphene Kutz of Olney, Illinois, Marcella Farrar of Poteau, Oklahoma and Velma Douglas of Killeen, Texas.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=glenn&surname=bowen&birth_place=texas&birth_year_from=1954&birth_year_to=1956&mother_surname=ryder&count=20


Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/63051718/roy-lee-mantooth
Roy Lee Mantooth
BIRTH   14 Feb 1922
DEATH   10 Mar 1979 (aged 57)
BURIAL   Abilene Municipal Cemetery
Abilene, Taylor County, Texas, USA....



https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&search=grossi_and+mantooth#relPageId=39&tab=page


More background:
Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137390&relPageId=16&search=mantooth_and grossi
2. No Title, pg 16

Found in: FBI - HSCA Subject File: John Caesar Grossi

ROY LEE MANTOOTH, and lives at 307 East Casom, but is out of town. Attempts were made to locate and contact FLEDA MANTOOTH, with negative results.
ROSE GROSSI, is supposed to be confined at a state mental hospital located in New Jersey, city unknown to her. Mrs.
RYDER and FLEDA MANTOOTH. AT BORGER, TEXAS The following investigation was conducted by SA GARY S.

3. No Title, pg 6
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=69900&relPageId=6&search=mantooth_and grossi
Found in: FBI - HSCA Subject File: John Caesar Grossi

.: 88.40913 JOHN CESAR GROSSI Charader".
FLEDA MANTOOTH with negative results. On December 16, 1964, Mrs.
MANTOOTH again promised complete cooperation with the FBI and the provisions of the Harboring Statute were explained again to her.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 10:55:52 AM by Tom Scully »

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #356 on: June 29, 2019, 09:56:09 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #357 on: June 29, 2019, 02:35:39 PM »


Here's a lightened version of 133B that happens to show up the rope sling and its ties into the side-swivels. The rope span varies in width because it may be flattened or doubled.



133A shows the loose strands at the fore-stock, darkened because of shade. One end of the span of rope hangs down from the hand that holds it to the rifle. This was the last of the photographs and Oswald was switching the rifle over and advancing the film, so some opportunity to accidentally get the sling between his hand and the rifle.

There is no way to know when he made the switch from the rope to the shoulder holster sling. I am sure they tried, but If they could have figured out where he bought the Air Force Shoulder Holster maybe they could have figured out where he bought the ammo. Definitely unique to use the shoulder holster as a sling.

Offline Denis Pointing

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #358 on: June 30, 2019, 04:55:59 PM »
There is no way to know when he made the switch from the rope to the shoulder holster sling. I am sure they tried, but If they could have figured out where he bought the Air Force Shoulder Holster maybe they could have figured out where he bought the ammo. Definitely unique to use the shoulder holster as a sling.

Not only was the sling "unique" it was pretty near useless, it was far too short to use as an aid in steadying the rifle by looping it around the arm. About the only thing it was good for was holding the rifle akimbo to the body, under a long trench coat whilst walking around the streets at night...which is exactly what Marina claims he did. Very spooky guy.

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #358 on: June 30, 2019, 04:55:59 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #359 on: June 30, 2019, 08:18:26 PM »




The Carcano shown in the Klein's Feb. 1963 advertisement is an illustration of a Carcano M91 (the original 50" Long Rifle) whose barrel was cut down to better appeal to the recreation market. The illustration was made for Klein's ads for ""Custom Sporterized Model" that ran from about 1960-62. About early 1962, I believe, they began selling unaltered Carcano M91/38 TS rifles (this particular model was introduced 1938 and was about 36.5") in ads with the description "6.5 Italian Carbine". They simply continued to use the same illustration as they always used, the cut-down M91 Long Rifle which has the bottom sling swivels.



If that's a bottom swivel mount in the backyard photo, then it's broken with the loop open. My belief if that was is seen are loose strands from a rope sling that was attached to the rifle's side sling mount on the fore-stock.

"If that's a bottom swivel mount in the backyard photo, then it's broken with the loop open."

There is a bottom mounted sling loop in the photo ( CE 133A) ......  Just like the Klein's illustration....   And that means the Carcano that Lee is holding is NOT the rifle that was found where it had been carefully hidden beneath heavy boxes of books on the sixth floor.   ( And in a spot that could NOT have been reached by a normal man who was allegedly fleeing, in the aisle at the top of the stairs.....)