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Author Topic: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?  (Read 135119 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #832 on: November 06, 2022, 02:53:28 PM »
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"Oswald Never Purchased a Mail Order Rifle
The Postal Money Order allegedly used to purchase the rifle that supposedly killed JFK is perhaps the most unexplainable document published by the Warren Commission. A quick look at this money order (see DOCUMENT link below) shows that it was never deposited nor cashed at a bank. It does not have a single bank stamp on the front or reverse side. Yet the WC wants us to believe that this uncashed, never-deposited money order was used to purchase the rifle that supposedly killed President Kennedy. All monetary instruments deposited to banks or financial institutions (1962-63) were stamped by the bank into which the item was deposited, stamped by a correspondent bank, and stamped by the originating bank or institution when the item was returned. A US Postal Money Order (PMO) purchased in Dallas, TX, and sent to Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago, would have been date-stamped when deposited to their bank (First National Bank of Chicago). The PMO would have been stamped a second time after passing through a correspondent bank and/or the Federal Reserve System. Finally the PMO would have been stamped a third time when returned to Federal Postal Money Order Center (FPMOC) in Kansas City. But the money order given to the Warren Commission did not have a single bank endorsement stamp and was not found at the FPMOC in Kansas City. The absence of date-stamped bank endorsements means this PMO was never deposited to a bank nor cashed by Kleins Sporting Goods. Yet we are supposed to believe that Klein's Sporting Goods shipped a rifle to Oswald in Dallas, TX and that he used this rifle to kill JFK.

This never deposited money order first appeared in the hands of Robert Jackson, an employee of the Federal Records Center, who lived in Alexandria, VA. Neither Mr. Jackson nor any employee of the Federal Records Center was questioned about the money order by the FBI or Warren Commission or HSCA or the Secret Service. At 9:35 PM (11/23/63) Jackson hand delivered this money order to J. Harold Marks, a Finance Officer for the US Postal Service, at his home in Arlington, VA. The initials that appear on the back of this money order were made by Jackson, Marks, and other Federal officials who took possession of the money order. The Secret Service made 5 photostats of this money order and sent the photostats to Dallas. The following day (11/24/63), at 10:00 AM, Secret Service Agent Grimes gave the original PMO to the FBI, and the money order soon vanished. The Warren Commission accepted photostats of this money order as "proof" that Oswald purchased this mail-order rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Apparently, not a single member of the WC nor its attorneys nor staff questioned the authenticity of this money order nor questioned the absence of a single bank stamp/endorsement.  To verify the authenticity and bank routing of this PMO, the Warren Commission only needed to ask the US Postal Department to conduct "payment research" on the money order. There is no cost for this service, but the results may have been a bit difficult for the WC to explain.

The Postal Money Order allegedly was purchased at the Dallas Post Office on March 12, 1963 at 10:30 A.M. According to Warren Commission documents, this money order was deposited into Klein's bank account in Chicago on February 15, 1963.  The Warren  Commission expected us to believe that the money order was deposited in the  First National  Bank of Chicago on  February 15,  1963--a month BEFORE the money order was purchased in Dallas! The money order and bank deposit printed in the Warren volumes in 1964 are both good examples of how the WC manipulated "evidence" in an attempt to frame Oswald as the Lone Assassin.  Oswald never purchased this money order nor was this money order ever deposited in Klein's bank account.  If Oswald never purchased nor received a rifle from Klein's, then he could not have posed for the Life magazine photo and he could not have carried the rifle to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository."

https://harveyandlee.net/

https://harveyandlee.net/MoneyOrder.html

Good enough for me.


Good enough for me.


It never ceases to amaze me how readily some people accept anything that tries to create doubt about the WC’s works.

Here’s an excerpt directly from Armstrong’s article which appears to be in conflict with Armstrong’s claim that the MO should have been found in KC.

“Money orders issued on yellow forms are audited at Washington, DC, rather than the Money Order Center at Kansas City, MO."


And Armstrong’s claim that the banks should have stamped and dated the specified MO isn’t supported by any regulations that he cited. All the regulations that Armstrong cited regarding that aspect were dated well before the new system went into effect in 1963.

One of the newspaper articles (Lodi News-Sentinal, April 16, 1962) in Armstrong’s webpage states:

“The machines will be used for issuing domestic money orders. They will print and punch the amount for which the money order is issued in a tabulating machine code. The money orders can be processed entirely by machine.

Armstrong doesn’t show any of the newer style U.S. postal money orders with any bank stamps with dates. He only shows older paychecks. Why do you suppose he doesn’t show any of the newer style U.S. Postal Money Orders that have any bank stamps with dates? Could it be that they were no longer required for processing? I don’t believe that any machines of that era would have been able to read or process the stamps. If the newspaper article is correct, and the money orders can be processed entirely by machines, then why would the bank stamps be needed?


http://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/u-s-postal-money-orders
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 02:55:10 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #832 on: November 06, 2022, 02:53:28 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #833 on: November 06, 2022, 03:04:21 PM »
In which Martin invokes his inner Inspector Clouseau once again.  He suspects everyone, and he suspects no one.  There are only "assumptions" and "opinions" in the contrarian wasteland that go round and round to no purpose.   Even after concluding that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs," we are forever left to ponder as to whether this is meant to suggest that Oswald wasn't the assassin.  No answer is ever forthcoming.  It's down the rabbit hole again and again.  This is where Martin attempts to deflect by asking for "my" evidence as though I or anyone has discovered evidence like Sherlock Holmes not uncovered by the DPD and FBI, as documented by the WC, in the most extensive criminal investigation in history.  His standard appearing to be to satisfy his own subjective impossible standard of proof.

Your obsession with me playing up again?

There's just no pleasing you, is there? First you complain that I only ask LNs critical questions and now you complain that I do the same with a CT. It's pathetic.

Even after concluding that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs," we are forever left to ponder as to whether this is meant to suggest that Oswald wasn't the assassin.  No answer is ever forthcoming.

Stop lying for once. This was answered a long time ago.

His standard appearing to be to satisfy his own subjective impossible standard of proof.

This constant complaining, about a so-called "impossible standard of proof" is Richard's way of telling us that he hasn't got a shred of evidence to back up his claims. As far as Richard is concerned there shouldn't be a standard of proof at all. The bottom line is simply that Richard just blindly and without question believes the WC fairytale without being able to defend it with reasonable, plausible and credible arguments or even actual evidence.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 04:04:44 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #834 on: November 06, 2022, 03:48:10 PM »
Your obsession with me playing up again?

Even after concluding that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs," we are forever left to ponder as to whether this is meant to suggest that Oswald wasn't the assassin.  No answer is ever forthcoming.

Stop lying for once. This was answered a long time ago.



LOL.  So you are now refusing to answer by falsely claiming to have answered?  How about just stating the answer here so there is no ambiguity on the matter?  You concluded that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs."  Does that mean that you have concluded Oswald wasn't the assassin?  If not, then how could Oswald still be the assassin if he "didn't come down the stairs" after the assassination from the 6th floor?  Clear it up for us.   Let me help since you are struggling.

Option 1:  confirm that your position is that Oswald wasn't the assassin because you have concluded "he didn't come down the stairs" from the 6th floor. 

Option 2:  explain how Oswald could still have been the assassin even if "he didn't come down the stairs" [here you fill in an explanation for how Oswald might have got from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor without using the stairs under the known circumstances]. 

Good luck.

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #834 on: November 06, 2022, 03:48:10 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #835 on: November 06, 2022, 03:55:45 PM »
LOL.  So you are now refusing to answer by falsely claiming to have answered?  How about just stating the answer here so there is no ambiguity on the matter?  You concluded that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs."  Does that mean that you have concluded Oswald wasn't the assassin?  If not, then how could Oswald still be the assassin if he "didn't come down the stairs" after the assassination from the 6th floor?  Clear it up for us.   Let me help since you are struggling.

Option 1:  confirm that your position is that Oswald wasn't the assassin because you have concluded "he didn't come down the stairs" from the 6th floor. 

Option 2:  explain how Oswald could still have been the assassin even if "he didn't come down the stairs" [here you fill in an explanation for how Oswald might have got from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor without using the stairs under the known circumstances]. 

Good luck.

If anybody is struggling, it's you!

Full ignorance on display, yet again.

Why not have the courage to state YOUR own position?

I have stated my position, over and over again. It's not my problem if you don't understand it.

If Oswald "didn't come down the stairs" as you concluded, then he wasn't the assassin.  Right?  Is that your position or not?

In the context of the official narrative, yes it is.

What part of "In the context of the official narrative, yes it is." do you still not understand?

Here are some bits of the conversation about this in another thread. You know, the one you ran away from as fast as you could.

The problem is that “Richard” has official narrative blinders on. He is incapable of operating outside of it.

Indeed. That's his biggest problem. He actually lost the argument some two months ago and still doesn't realize it. It's kinda sad, really.

Like any other fanatical zealot, Richard, can not imagine that his bible (i.e. the official narrative) could possibly be wrong.

Oswald not coming down the stairs unnoticed within 75 seconds after the last shot means that he wasn't on the 6th floor and thus that he could not have shot Kennedy from there. This would destroy a crucial part of the official narrative and justify the question what else there is in the official narrative that could also be wrong.

Obviously, Richard doesn't like or accept any of that, but he is not so dumb that he doesn't understand that he hasn't got a shred of evidence to put Oswald on the 6th floor when the shots were fired (as he claimed) so he falls back on his faith like belief and simply hopes he can BS his way out of the mess he has created from himself by deflection and making (in his mind) big issues out of non-issues.

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled” - Mark Twain



« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 04:02:15 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #836 on: November 06, 2022, 04:16:23 PM »
If anybody is struggling, it's you!

What part of "In the context of the official narrative, yes it is." do you still not understand?

So you leave open the possibility that Oswald could still be the assassin OUTSIDE the context of the "official narrative" (whatever that is supposed to mean) even if he "didn't come down the stairs"?  How about explaining for once what it is that you are suggesting.  I'm asking about YOUR position after concluding that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs."  That shouldn't require a game of a thousand questions or a mind reader.  Just tell us what you are suggesting. 

Start with your conclusion that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs" and explain how Oswald still might have been the assassin outside "the context of the official narrative" if that is what you are now claiming.  Where could Oswald have assassinated JFK from if he "didn't come the stairs" to reach the 2nd floor?   If that isn't what you are claiming, then what is it?  Again, this is not a trick question since you presumably know and support your own position and have confidence to share it with us.  Right?

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #836 on: November 06, 2022, 04:16:23 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #837 on: November 06, 2022, 05:18:09 PM »
So you leave open the possibility that Oswald could still be the assassin OUTSIDE the context of the "official narrative" (whatever that is supposed to mean) even if he "didn't come down the stairs"?  How about explaining for once what it is that you are suggesting.  I'm asking about YOUR position after concluding that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs."  That shouldn't require a game of a thousand questions or a mind reader.  Just tell us what you are suggesting. 

Start with your conclusion that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs" and explain how Oswald still might have been the assassin outside "the context of the official narrative" if that is what you are now claiming. Where could Oswald have assassinated JFK from if he "didn't come the stairs" to reach the 2nd floor?    If that isn't what you are claiming, then what is it?  Again, this is not a trick question since you presumably know and support your own position and have confidence to share it with us.  Right?

So you leave open the possibility that Oswald could still be the assassin OUTSIDE the context of the "official narrative" (whatever that is supposed to mean) even if he "didn't come down the stairs"? 

Boy, you rare really struggling.  You asked me a question, which I have now answered a dozen times or more. Beyond that, if the official narrative is indeed wrong then any scenario is possible.

How about explaining for once what it is that you are suggesting.

Other than in your imagination, when did I make any suggestion?

I'm asking about YOUR position after concluding that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs."

That's easy. My position is that if Oswald didn't come down the stairs, the official narrative is wrong on a crucial element of the case against Oswald and loses all credibility.

Start with your conclusion that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs" and explain how Oswald still might have been the assassin outside "the context of the official narrative" if that is what you are now claiming.

Oh boy... this is all way over your head, isn't it. But let me confuse you so more; No that's not what I am claiming. Unlike you, I don't make claims I can't back up with evidence.

Where could Oswald have assassinated JFK from if he "didn't come the stairs" to reach the 2nd floor? 

Who said that he did? You still have your official narrative blinders on and keep running in circles of your own making.


Offline Richard Smith

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #838 on: November 07, 2022, 02:19:29 PM »
So you leave open the possibility that Oswald could still be the assassin OUTSIDE the context of the "official narrative" (whatever that is supposed to mean) even if he "didn't come down the stairs"? 

Boy, you rare really struggling.  You asked me a question, which I have now answered a dozen times or more. Beyond that, if the official narrative is indeed wrong then any scenario is possible.

How about explaining for once what it is that you are suggesting.

Other than in your imagination, when did I make any suggestion?

I'm asking about YOUR position after concluding that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs."

That's easy. My position is that if Oswald didn't come down the stairs, the official narrative is wrong on a crucial element of the case against Oswald and loses all credibility.

Start with your conclusion that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs" and explain how Oswald still might have been the assassin outside "the context of the official narrative" if that is what you are now claiming.

Oh boy... this is all way over your head, isn't it. But let me confuse you so more; No that's not what I am claiming. Unlike you, I don't make claims I can't back up with evidence.

Where could Oswald have assassinated JFK from if he "didn't come the stairs" to reach the 2nd floor? 

Who said that he did? You still have your official narrative blinders on and keep running in circles of your own making.

Simple question:  If Oswald "didn't come down the stairs," could he still have been the assassin in your opinion?  If so, how? 

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #838 on: November 07, 2022, 02:19:29 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #839 on: November 07, 2022, 04:20:21 PM »
This is where Martin attempts to deflect by asking for "my" evidence as though I or anyone has discovered evidence like Sherlock Holmes not uncovered by the DPD and FBI, as documented by the WC, in the most extensive criminal investigation in history.

This is a load of BS, even by “Richard” standards. You make truth claims that even the FBI and the WC didn’t try to make. And you never substantiate a single one. All you do is strawman Martin over and over. Give it a rest.