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Author Topic: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?  (Read 38166 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #670 on: February 18, 2020, 12:15:36 AM »
I'm wondering if Weitzman saw the rifle while looking between the large gap of the stacked cartons on the pallets

Why wonder?.....Just read what Weitzman testified....

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was looking under.
Mr. BALL - Looking from the top side of this picture?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat.

    "I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he [Boone] was looking
     on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said,
     "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it."
        -- Weitzman

Interesting. If the rifle is beneath the pallet, how can Boone (on top of the pallet) see through the stacked books to the floor?

    "Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under
     the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books.
     I believe there were more books in here."
        -- Weitzman

Hmm. "I was behind this section of books"? He's probably crouched down near the floor ("I was looking under the flat") when he saw the rifle trough the gap between the stacked cartons ("I was behind this section of books").

    "at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun"
        -- Weitzman

Doesn't sound like there's a pallet and a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.



CE 515 (marked by Boone)
Mr. BALL - Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes
          where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Boone's arrow point to the line of boxes where the rifle appears in the Crime Lab pictures.



    "I left Fritz in charge while Deputy Boone and I began looking for the weapon.
        ...
     Boone was about six to eight feet from me when he said, "I see it!"

     I stepped over and looked between the cartons and said, "Sure, that's the weapon!"

        -- Luke Mooney, in "No More Silence" (Snead, 1998)

"Looked between the cartons".

Mr. BELIN - How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr. CRAIG - About 8-foot.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over to the--uh--luster of boxes where he was standing and
          looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.
Mr. BELIN - When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe
          which way the boxes were?
Mr. CRAIG - There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon,
          and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I
          remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the
          north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under---uh---or up
          tight against 'em---you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course,
           both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em.
          You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN - You are gesturing with your hand there---would you say that the boxes,
           then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular
          "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN - And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Well, it-it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in
          particularly was about---uh---oh, was about 5-foot.

"Looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor". Sounds like they're standing South of the pallets of stacked cartons and looking northward through that gap:



Gap between stacked cartons on pallets is upper center in background.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #671 on: February 18, 2020, 12:26:22 AM »
   
Interesting. If the rifle is beneath the pallet, how can Boone (on top of the pallet) see through the stacked books to the floor?

Boom!!

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #672 on: February 18, 2020, 01:37:49 AM »
    "I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he [Boone] was looking
     on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said,
     "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it."
        -- Weitzman

Interesting. If the rifle is beneath the pallet, how can Boone (on top of the pallet) see through the stacked books to the floor?

    "Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under
     the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books.
     I believe there were more books in here."
        -- Weitzman

Hmm. "I was behind this section of books"? He's probably crouched down near the floor ("I was looking under the flat") when he saw the rifle trough the gap between the stacked cartons ("I was behind this section of books").

    "at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun"
        -- Weitzman

Doesn't sound like there's a pallet and a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.



CE 515 (marked by Boone)
Mr. BALL - Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes
          where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Boone's arrow point to the line of boxes where the rifle appears in the Crime Lab pictures.



    "I left Fritz in charge while Deputy Boone and I began looking for the weapon.
        ...
     Boone was about six to eight feet from me when he said, "I see it!"

     I stepped over and looked between the cartons and said, "Sure, that's the weapon!"

        -- Luke Mooney, in "No More Silence" (Snead, 1998)

"Looked between the cartons".

Mr. BELIN - How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr. CRAIG - About 8-foot.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over to the--uh--luster of boxes where he was standing and
          looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.
Mr. BELIN - When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe
          which way the boxes were?
Mr. CRAIG - There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon,
          and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I
          remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the
          north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under---uh---or up
          tight against 'em---you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course,
           both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em.
          You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN - You are gesturing with your hand there---would you say that the boxes,
           then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular
          "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN - And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Well, it-it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in
          particularly was about---uh---oh, was about 5-foot.

"Looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor". Sounds like they're standing South of the pallets of stacked cartons and looking northward through that gap:



Gap between stacked cartons on pallets is upper center in background.

Interesting. If the rifle is beneath the pallet, how can Boone (on top of the pallet) see through the stacked books to the floor?


Boone only saw a tiny portion of the butt of the rifle that was not beneath the pallet...  ( In fact boone might not have seen that tiny portion of the butt if Weitzman hadn't alerted him to the rifle on the floor beneath the pallet.  ( actually between the wings of the pallet )

 "at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun"...Seymour Weitzman

Weitzman couldn't have known what Boone saw.... because he was down on the floor shining his flashlight beneath the stack of books that were on the pallet.

Meanwhile Boone had removed at least one box the served as the roof of the crevasse in which the rifle was lying on the floor. ("Looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor") Boone shined his flashlight down into the dark crevasse, and he saw a tiny portion of the butt of the rifle protruding out from  beneath the boxes.

Then we have Mooney's statement that corroborates Weitzman and Boone... "I stepped over and looked between the cartons and said, "Sure, that's the weapon!"

And some added icing on the cake....Roger Craig's testimony....

Mr. CRAIG - There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon,
          and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I
          remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the
          north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under---uh---or up
          tight against 'em---you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course,
           both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em.
          You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN - You are gesturing with your hand there---would you say that the boxes,
           then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular
          "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN - And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Well, it-it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in
          particularly was about---uh---oh, was about 5-foot.

Now how the hell could anybody have dashed by the spot and hid that rifle that was beneath the pallet of books that were stacked about four feet high????

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #674 on: February 18, 2020, 02:30:10 AM »
    "I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he [Boone] was looking
     on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said,
     "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it."
        -- Weitzman

Interesting. If the rifle is beneath the pallet, how can Boone (on top of the pallet) see through the stacked books to the floor?

    "Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under
     the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books.
     I believe there were more books in here."
        -- Weitzman

Hmm. "I was behind this section of books"? He's probably crouched down near the floor ("I was looking under the flat") when he saw the rifle trough the gap between the stacked cartons ("I was behind this section of books").

    "at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun"
        -- Weitzman

Doesn't sound like there's a pallet and a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.



CE 515 (marked by Boone)
Mr. BALL - Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes
          where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Boone's arrow point to the line of boxes where the rifle appears in the Crime Lab pictures.



    "I left Fritz in charge while Deputy Boone and I began looking for the weapon.
        ...
     Boone was about six to eight feet from me when he said, "I see it!"

     I stepped over and looked between the cartons and said, "Sure, that's the weapon!"

        -- Luke Mooney, in "No More Silence" (Snead, 1998)

"Looked between the cartons".

Mr. BELIN - How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr. CRAIG - About 8-foot.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over to the--uh--luster of boxes where he was standing and
          looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.
Mr. BELIN - When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe
          which way the boxes were?
Mr. CRAIG - There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon,
          and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I
          remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the
          north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under---uh---or up
          tight against 'em---you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course,
           both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em.
          You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN - You are gesturing with your hand there---would you say that the boxes,
           then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular
          "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN - And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Well, it-it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in
          particularly was about---uh---oh, was about 5-foot.

"Looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor". Sounds like they're standing South of the pallets of stacked cartons and looking northward through that gap:



Gap between stacked cartons on pallets is upper center in background.

Jerry, what is the distance from the tip of Boones arrow and the north wall?






Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #675 on: February 18, 2020, 02:57:22 AM »
Jerry, what is the distance from the tip of Boones arrow and the north wall?



I would guess about 15', maybe more. The rifle was actually found to the West of that high stack that reaches to the "Stair Way" sign.

Boone's arrow is on the East side (towards the viewer) of the high stack. Maybe he didn't realize it. He certainly didnt point to a stack of cartons on a pallet, which are visible in the photo.



In this view, looking South, the tall stack mentioned previously is to camera-left. The window on the West wall is to camera-right. Sunlight from it falls on the tall stack. The rifle was found on the floor on the opposite side of the six boxes in the foreground that are stacked two-high.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #676 on: February 18, 2020, 03:33:26 PM »


I would guess about 15', maybe more. The rifle was actually found to the West of that high stack that reaches to the "Stair Way" sign.

Boone's arrow is on the East side (towards the viewer) of the high stack. Maybe he didn't realize it. He certainly didnt point to a stack of cartons on a pallet, which are visible in the photo.



In this view, looking South, the tall stack mentioned previously is to camera-left. The window on the West wall is to camera-right. Sunlight from it falls on the tall stack. The rifle was found on the floor on the opposite side of the six boxes in the foreground that are stacked two-high.

Jerry, do you see any pallet beneath the boxes that formed the north wall of the crevasse ?



Surely you've come to your senses and realize that  Seymour  Weitzman very clearly stated that the rifle was beneath the pallet.....

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #677 on: February 18, 2020, 05:10:26 PM »
Jerry, do you see any pallet beneath the boxes that formed the north wall of the crevasse ?



Surely you've come to your senses and realize that  Seymour  Weitzman very clearly stated that the rifle was beneath the pallet.....

I have nothing more. Multiple Forum members have lent support for the DPD Crime Lab in-situ location. No one on the Forum, after pages and years of consideration of what you've presented, supports your alternative location.

That said, evidence validity isn't something determined by popularity.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #678 on: February 18, 2020, 06:02:59 PM »
    "I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he [Boone] was looking
     on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said,
     "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it."
        -- Weitzman

Interesting. If the rifle is beneath the pallet, how can Boone (on top of the pallet) see through the stacked books to the floor?

    "Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under
     the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books.
     I believe there were more books in here."
        -- Weitzman

Hmm. "I was behind this section of books"? He's probably crouched down near the floor ("I was looking under the flat") when he saw the rifle trough the gap between the stacked cartons ("I was behind this section of books").

    "at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun"
        -- Weitzman

Doesn't sound like there's a pallet and a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.



CE 515 (marked by Boone)
Mr. BALL - Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes
          where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Boone's arrow point to the line of boxes where the rifle appears in the Crime Lab pictures.



    "I left Fritz in charge while Deputy Boone and I began looking for the weapon.
        ...
     Boone was about six to eight feet from me when he said, "I see it!"

     I stepped over and looked between the cartons and said, "Sure, that's the weapon!"

        -- Luke Mooney, in "No More Silence" (Snead, 1998)

"Looked between the cartons".

Mr. BELIN - How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr. CRAIG - About 8-foot.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over to the--uh--luster of boxes where he was standing and
          looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.
Mr. BELIN - When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe
          which way the boxes were?
Mr. CRAIG - There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon,
          and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I
          remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the
          north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under---uh---or up
          tight against 'em---you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course,
           both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em.
          You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN - You are gesturing with your hand there---would you say that the boxes,
           then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular
          "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN - And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG - Well, it-it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in
          particularly was about---uh---oh, was about 5-foot.

"Looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor". Sounds like they're standing South of the pallets of stacked cartons and looking northward through that gap:



Gap between stacked cartons on pallets is upper center in background.

Doesn't sound like there's a pallet and a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.



CE 515 (marked by Boone)

Who said anything about a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.....There were no cartons over the the rifle except the one or two boxes that served as to roof of the crevasse.  Just LOOK at the photo .....Can't you see that it would be a simple matter to slide the north boxes to the south and form a "cave" beneath the pallet.
And I know you've seen the Alyea film that shows Lt Day, Who is on the south side of the rifle,  kneeling down, and reaching out to grab the leather sling ( which is mounted on the left side of the rifle, and is up, toward the ceiling, when Day grabs it. ) he then lifts the rifle by the sling.   The rifle was lying on the floor with the bolt handle down and the sling side up.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 06:21:47 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #679 on: February 18, 2020, 06:11:48 PM »
Doesn't sound like there's a pallet and a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.



CE 515 (marked by Boone)

Who said anything about a huge stack of cartons over the rifle.....

You said the rifle was under the pallet. The pallets in that area are stacked five-feet high with cartons.

Quote
There were no cartons over the the rifle except the one or two boxes that served as to roof of the crevasse.  Just LOOK at the photo .....Can't you see that it would be a simple matter to slide the north boxes to the south and form a "cave" beneath the pallet.
And I know you've see the Alyea film that shows Lt Day, Who is on the south side of the rifle,  kneeling down, and reaching out to grab the leather sling ( which is mounted on the left side of the rifle but is up when Day grabs it. ) he then lifts the rifle by the sling.   The rifle was lying on the floor with the bolt handle down and the sling side up.

Unfortunately, the Alyea clip begins at the moment of pick-up; it can't say anything about how the rifle was originally positioned in the crack. Day acknowledged the in-situ photos and therefore he must have prepared the rifle for pickup. If he had not manipulated the rifle in order to safety pick it it up and instead just picked the rifle up by the sight, you would have faulted him for that.

 

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