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Author Topic: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders  (Read 10418 times)

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2019, 03:34:46 PM »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2019, 03:41:08 PM »
MARY FERRELL FOUNDATION

Dealey Plaza Echo, Volume 1, Issue 1
Current Section: The Paper Bag That Never Was (Part I), by Ian Griggs
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16233#relPageId=34&tab=page

Dealey Plaza Echo, Volume 1, Issue 2
Current Section: The Paper Bag That Never Was (Part II), by Ian Griggs
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16234#relPageId=34&tab=page

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #102 on: May 26, 2019, 09:20:03 PM »

It doesn't say a screwdriver is necessary to remove the bolt.- Learn to read correctly, Chappers.
>>> Learn to write correctly, Ray: Don't include an item that doesn't qualify to be included on your 'Hardly a simple operation especially without a screwdriver' list. It gives an alert observer the distinct impression of a padding attempt.

The top wooden barrel cover won't come off until the bayonet lug and the front sling holder are removed by a screwdriver. You have to unscrew the front sling holder after the bayonet lug again with a screwdriver.
>>> You kept part of that a secret, thus one does not get a down-to-the-last-screw count total.

No, but maybe you know your own tricks best, Chappers.
>>> Point out where I've padded any of my posts, Ray.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 09:33:42 PM by Bill Chapman »

Online Ray Mitcham

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #103 on: May 26, 2019, 09:37:27 PM »
It doesn't say a screwdriver is necessary to remove the bolt.- Learn to read correctly, Chappers.
>>> Learn to write correctly, Ray: Don't include an item that doesn't qualify to be included on your 'Hardly a simple operation especially without a screwdriver' list. It gives an alert observer the distinct impression of a padding attempt.
Who said anywhere at the start that a screwdriver was required? When it was, I noted it. I was describing what was required to break the rifle down to its least components.  Your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.
Quote
The top wooden barrel cover won't come off until the bayonet lug and the front sling holder are removed by a screwdriver. You have to unscrew the front sling holder after the bayonet lug again with a screwdriver.
>>> You kept part of that a secret, thus one did not get a sense of how many screws in total would be involved in this partial break-down.
Once again your comprehension lets you down. I didn't keep anything "secret". I described how to dismantle the rifle, in several steps. I'm sorry I didn't mention exactly how many screws were necessary to be removed.
Quote
No, but maybe you know your own tricks best, Chappers.
>>> Point out where I've padded any of my posts, Ray.
Once again. note. I didn't say you did, but insinuated the you might. Not very good at this are you?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 09:39:02 PM by Ray Mitcham »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2019, 06:06:12 AM »
Who said anywhere at the start that a screwdriver was required? When it was, I noted it. I was describing what was required to break the rifle down to its least components.  Your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.Once again your comprehension lets you down. I didn't keep anything "secret". I described how to dismantle the rifle, in several steps. I'm sorry I didn't mention exactly how many screws were necessary to be removed.Once again. note. I didn't say you did, but insinuated the you might. Not very good at this are you?

Your not capable of supplying a clear, complete account of a Carcano break-down.

As it turns out, you didn't have to say 'anywhere at the start':You summed up the list with 'Hardly a simple operation especially without a screwdriver.' That seems a direct slam (or shall I say 'insinuation'?) about Oswald being able/unable to do the job with a coin.

You missed a couple of steps there so they were in effect hidden, or secreted from an observer's view. You're sorry for not mentioning a total screw count yet you still are not supplying that number. I don't remember how many Cunningham reported (3 or 5 I think) but if you can supply an exact number one can compare that to other screw-number claims.

So you can't identify any post of mine that you would consider 'padding' on my part. Instead you plead that you're only 'insinuating' that I might use such 'tricks'. Yeah, sure. Stop JAQing around.

Not good at what? breaking down a Carcano? You're right about that. And after reading your version, I still don't know how because you don't supply the full story, including a video on how fast that can be accomplished, and how few parts really have to be removed to break down that rifle.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 06:29:12 AM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2019, 06:23:58 PM »
Perhaps I can summarise the various points we may have lost from the past few days postings. My memory is not great so forgive me and please add where appropriate.

I asked if there was any evidence that the "open end" of the bag was ever sealed.

Richard Smith suggested that a fold over without fixed sealing might suffice.

Jack Nessan suggested that the sack was actually 42” in length and could have contained an assembled rifle.

JohnM suggested that the end could have been cut with scissors and therefore could have contained either a disassembled or an intact rifle.

Gary Craig provided an FBI (?) document that summarised a re-enactment with LMR that stated Oswald held the package like a baseballer would pick up and carry a bat at one end.

Ross Lidell provided a TV recreation by Dan Rather suggesting a possible solution to the Frazier observation of about 2 foot package.

During the discussion I claimed that LMR and BWF would have known Oswald was the suspect when she visited the Paine's to inform the cops of his "suspicious" package.
Based on LHO's rifle was found on the 6th floor and how did it get there.

The WC did not appear to decide who was right and who was wrong. They simply took the statements, investigated it, asked some questions and moved on. In the case of BWF, the WC attempted to make his memory of the bag work for the disassembled rifle and it does not. The only description of LHO carrying the rifle that works is LMR's WC statement tying the right hand "palm" print to her description of how he carried it and the sack nearly touching the ground. Estimating distances and lengths is not an exact science.

A 38" bag would require a disassembled carcano but if the bag is longer as stated by Weisberg then the rifle can be fully assembled and carried by the barrel or forearm stock and held under the sights. The top does not have to be secured and the bottom left open.

Harold Weisberg  ------ Coverup.
"Two of those photos, CE1304 and CE142, show the bag lying alongside a tape measure and ruler. The very top of the bag in 1304 is folded down, making a length of 38 inches, which the Report mentions immediately after noting the 34.8 inch length of the disassembled Mannlicher Carcano (R133). Actually, CE142 is more accurate. It shows the bag was really 42 inches long and 9 inches wide. CE1304 was not photographed head-on, but from a slight angle that makes the bag measure only 71/2 inches wide—the difference is only perspective. "


Online Colin Crow

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2019, 10:52:50 AM »
Based on LHO's rifle was found on the 6th floor and how did it get there.

The WC did not appear to decide who was right and who was wrong. They simply took the statements, investigated it, asked some questions and moved on. In the case of BWF, the WC attempted to make his memory of the bag work for the disassembled rifle and it does not. The only description of LHO carrying the rifle that works is LMR's WC statement tying the right hand "palm" print to her description of how he carried it and the sack nearly touching the ground. Estimating distances and lengths is not an exact science.

A 38" bag would require a disassembled carcano but if the bag is longer as stated by Weisberg then the rifle can be fully assembled and carried by the barrel or forearm stock and held under the sights. The top does not have to be secured and the bottom left open.

Harold Weisberg  ------ Coverup.
"Two of those photos, CE1304 and CE142, show the bag lying alongside a tape measure and ruler. The very top of the bag in 1304 is folded down, making a length of 38 inches, which the Report mentions immediately after noting the 34.8 inch length of the disassembled Mannlicher Carcano (R133). Actually, CE142 is more accurate. It shows the bag was really 42 inches long and 9 inches wide. CE1304 was not photographed head-on, but from a slight angle that makes the bag measure only 71/2 inches wide—the difference is only perspective. "

Have you convinced anyone else that CE142 was used to hold an assembled rifle?

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #107 on: May 29, 2019, 01:51:23 PM »
Frazier uses the term folded in his 11.22 affidavit:

"Before I got in the car, I glanced in the back seat, and saw a big sack. It must have been about 2' long, and the top of the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of folded under."

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #108 on: May 29, 2019, 02:04:06 PM »
Frazier uses the term folded in his 11.22 affidavit:

"Before I got in the car, I glanced in the back seat, and saw a big sack. It must have been about 2' long, and the top of the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of folded under."

Agreed Richard. Looks like he got a look at both ends. Each had a visible fold, one was a 4” taped folded end. The other had a fold in the opposite direction. Do we see that second fold line in any photo? The back seat was 62” wide. Frazier glanced over his right shoulder and his peripheral vision has to notice an end of the a that extended more than half way across the seat from the right rear door.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #109 on: May 29, 2019, 02:50:59 PM »
Agreed Richard. Looks like he got a look at both ends. Each had a visible fold, one was a 4” taped folded end. The other had a fold in the opposite direction. Do we see that second fold line in any photo? The back seat was 62” wide. Frazier glanced over his right shoulder and his peripheral vision has to notice an end of the a that extended more than half way across the seat from the right rear door.
It used to be a 3" flap now it is 4" flap? That wouldn't be because of the 39+" vs 38"overall resulting length?

Unfortunately the appearance of the bag nor palm print on the bag does not seem to support Frazier's statement.

It looks like Jerry Organ's excellent sketch seems to negate the whole question anyway and renders it a moot point. Jerry has been able to show how Frazier's odd observation is possible.


 

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