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Author Topic: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders  (Read 11418 times)

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2019, 10:46:55 PM »
The wrinkles are indicative of a type of folding in which one rolls it and crumples it in lieu of neatly folding it. Why do you ask about sealing it with tape? Is that important for some reason?

I had always assumed that both ends would have been secured in some fashion that would prevent the disassembled rifle parts from falling out. In addition wouldn?t "scrunching" around the barrel tend to provide onlookers with more information regarding the contents than a flat taped end? Also has more tendency to tear the paper.

Offline Ross Lidell

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2019, 10:59:04 PM »
I had always assumed that both ends would have been secured in some fashion that would prevent the disassembled rifle parts from falling out. In addition wouldn?t "scrunching" around the barrel tend to provide onlookers with more information regarding the contents than a flat taped end? Also has more tendency to tear the paper.

What onlookers? Oswald's only concern would be curious fellow employees inside the TSBD... between the back door near the loading dock and the freight elevators. Even the ever-alert Jack Edwin Dougherty never saw Oswald's package as he passed by.

Onlookers getting information about the contents of a paper package from the method of folding the end of it?

Colin: Are you implying that "onlookers" have x-ray vision?

Offline Charles Collins

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2019, 12:33:54 AM »
I had always assumed that both ends would have been secured in some fashion that would prevent the disassembled rifle parts from falling out. In addition wouldn?t "scrunching" around the barrel tend to provide onlookers with more information regarding the contents than a flat taped end? Also has more tendency to tear the paper.

One end needed to be left open until the rifle was put inside. There might not have been any suitable tape available at the Paine residence to seal it after that. The wrinkles appear to be roughly perpendicular to the long dimension of the bag and the rifle. So a rolled up end of the bag would tend to keep the contents inside. Unless perhaps  someone were to turn it so that the rolled up end was on the bottom and shook it in a deliberate attempt to empty the bag.

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2019, 02:05:22 AM »
What onlookers? Oswald's only concern would be curious fellow employees inside the TSBD... between the back door near the loading dock and the freight elevators. Even the ever-alert Jack Edwin Dougherty never saw Oswald's package as he passed by.

Onlookers getting information about the contents of a paper package from the method of folding the end of it?

Colin: Are you implying that "onlookers" have x-ray vision?

I don't know what Oswald's concerns were, are you able to read minds? I am not implying x-ray vision but the grasping of the barrel as I believe has been implied gives some information as to the shape of the contents underneath.

In the position he was assigned by the WC narrative one assumes his concerns would be; a) a secure means of transporting the weapon, ie. one that would make it impossible for the contents to be revealed by accident, b) some arrangement that would not arouse suspicion or curiosity before the event.

To my mind simply folding down and "scrunching" the open end satisfies neither whereas a fixed seal of some sort does. If nothing for the ability to prevent nosy onlookers, TSBD or otherwise, from asking for a peek.

Here is an onlooker's description of the bag.

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?
Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.
Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.
Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

Given LMR described the folding down of the top end, how long do you estimate the fold over to be?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 09:03:04 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2019, 02:28:00 AM »
One end needed to be left open until the rifle was put inside. There might not have been any suitable tape available at the Paine residence to seal it after that. The wrinkles appear to be roughly perpendicular to the long dimension of the bag and the rifle. So a rolled up end of the bag would tend to keep the contents inside. Unless perhaps  someone were to turn it so that the rolled up end was on the bottom and shook it in a deliberate attempt to empty the bag.

I agree that the WC narrative requires Oswald's TSBD manufacture of a wrapper with one end sealed.

Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.
Mrs. PAINE - It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.
Mr. JENNER - It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - From where did you obtain that?
Mrs. PAINE - From the same bottom drawer.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr. JENNER - This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Off the record.
 Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?

There was also string in the garage for wrapping. I was going to securely transport the weapon I don't think I would trust folded scrunching. Then again, disassembling to save 3 inches in length makes no sense either.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2019, 04:08:23 PM »
I don't know what Oswald's concerns were, are you able to read minds? I am not implying x-ray vision but the grasping of the barrel as I believe has been implied gives some information as to the shape of the contents underneath.

In the position he was assigned by the WC narrative one assumes his concerns would be; a) a secure means of transporting the weapon, ie. one that would make it impossible for the contents to be revealed by accident, b) some arrangement that would not arouse suspicion or curiosity before the event.

To my mind simply folding down and "scrunching" the open end satisfies neither whereas a fixed seal of some sort does. If nothing for the ability to prevent nosy onlookers, TSBD or otherwise, from asking for a peek.

Here is an onlooker's description of the bag.

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?
Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.
Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.
Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

Given LMR described the folding down of the top end, how long do you estimate the fold over to be?

The fingerprints found on the bag indicate that Linnie May Randle was correct as to how LHO carried the bag. He held it by the barrel end with his right hand under the front sight and his left hand near the wrist of the stock. The rifle was never dissembled.

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2019, 04:09:09 PM »
I agree that the WC narrative requires Oswald's TSBD manufacture of a wrapper with one end sealed.

Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.
Mrs. PAINE - It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.
Mr. JENNER - It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - From where did you obtain that?
Mrs. PAINE - From the same bottom drawer.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr. JENNER - This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Off the record.
 Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?

There was also string in the garage for wrapping. I was going to securely transport the weapon I don't think I would trust folded scrunching. Then again, disassembling to save 3 inches in length makes no sense either.

What is the minimal amount of disassembling of Oswald's MC rifle that it would take to make it fit the bag?  The pictures that I have always seen depict the rifle in numerous pieces in what appears to be a state of complete disassembly, but is it possible to simply remove the barrel from the stock without completely disassembling the entire rifle to make it shorter?  If so, it might be that the rifle was already disassembled in the blanket for cleaning purposes or that Oswald thought - per the magazine ad - that his rifle was a bit shorter than it actually was and he had no choice but to disassemble it to the fit a bag he made for a slightly shorter rifle.  Regardless, all he has to do is fold down one end and carry that end in an upright position to securely transport the weapon.  Not exactly rocket science on his part.

Offline Charles Collins

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2019, 05:45:04 PM »
I agree that the WC narrative requires Oswald's TSBD manufacture of a wrapper with one end sealed.

Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.
Mrs. PAINE - It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.
Mr. JENNER - It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - From where did you obtain that?
Mrs. PAINE - From the same bottom drawer.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr. JENNER - This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Off the record.
 Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?

There was also string in the garage for wrapping. I was going to securely transport the weapon I don't think I would trust folded scrunching. Then again, disassembling to save 3 inches in length makes no sense either.

Are you suggesting it wasn?t made from the TSBD materials?

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2019, 02:52:34 AM »
Are you suggesting it wasn?t made from the TSBD materials?

Which bag are you referring to?

The one Oswald carried that morning or the one found at the TSBD?

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2019, 03:16:00 AM »
Are you suggesting it wasn?t made from the TSBD materials?

No, although Jenner seems to be commenting on the similarity. That testimony shows that there was tape in the garage.....something you queried in your post. Just informing you that there was.

 

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