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Author Topic: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders  (Read 8161 times)

Online Gary Craig

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2019, 06:48:15 PM »
Fritz arrives at the alleged sniper's nest within 8 minutes of it's discovery.

He's pictured/filmed virtually standing on top of the homemade paper gun case.

Yet he testifies that he wasn't at the scene when the paper gun case was found.
Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.
Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.

How is that possible?


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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2019, 06:48:15 PM »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2019, 08:03:50 PM »
If there had been a thousand pictures taken of the bag, it wouldn't make one iota of difference to CTers.  They would then claim it was planted there or that it has no probative value in proving Oswald's guilt ("silly and irrelevant").  Some genius would ask if everyone who carried a long bag to work was a presidential assassin (as though there were no context to this bag).  How do we know this?  Because Oswald's rifle was found and photographed and they still go down that rabbit hole clinging to any straw.  No photo was taken.  Great - let's argue despite the assurance of multiple detectives that it wasn't there.  If a photo had been taken, then it's on to plan B without missing a beat and suggest it was planted, Oswald's prints just happened to be on it because he worked there etc.  A photo has no value when taken.  Only when not taken.  Round and round down the rabbit hole.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2019, 10:03:13 PM »
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So, you're changing the subject rather than explaining your 'silly and irrelevant' charge about Oswald's fingerprints found on boxes in the sniper's nest. Typical CT 'whataboutism'.

Evasive! You brought up the photograph and basically claimed or at least implied it was taken before anybody had messed with the sniper's nest. If that was true then the paper bag should be in the photo and it isn't. My question is a valid one and you seem to lack an answer

One more time: Are you still claiming that my point about Oswald's fingerprints found on the box in a placement that would position the box in a specific direction (thus suggesting a rifle support built for a downrange firing position) somehow silly and irrelevant?


Yes, because you have no way of knowing how the boxes were really placed. Instead you rely on a photograph with questionable validity.

Describe this 'questionable validity' of yours and keep in mind that the angled tip of the front-most box was seen in Dilliard seconds after the final shot.

Re any 'evasiveness' from me, you've just answered that yourself in this comment to Charles:
Martin@Charles: "If I recall correctly, Alyea's film of the area also does not show the paper bag in situ, nor it's removal from the sniper's nest, which either indicates that the bag wasn't there to begin with or it was already removed by somebody"
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 10:19:31 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2019, 10:03:13 PM »

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2019, 10:52:48 PM »
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In the sniper's nest, there were four boxes used in connection with the shooting.  One large box containing books and then two of the smaller "Rolling Readers" boxes atop the large box of books.  The fourth box was on the floor behind the stack of three,
obviously used as a seat.

On one of the Rolling Readers boxes at the window, Oswald's left palmprint and his right index fingerprint were found.

The employees laying the floor moved the large boxes of books from the west end of the floor over to the east end.  However, the "Rolling Readers" boxes did not need to be moved, i.e. they weren't over on the west end where the new floor was being placed down.  The two "Rolling readers" boxes in the sniper's nest were originally about three aisles over from the sniper's nest window and were taken to that window for the purposes of being used as a gun rest.  The "Rolling Readers" boxes didn't contain books.

On the box on the floor, the one used as a seat, Day, using powder, dusted the box and developed a palmprint.  Latona examined the print and found it to be from Oswald's right palm.  Because Day used a powder to develop the print, Latona stated that not too long a time had passed between the time the print was placed on the box and the time it was developed by Day.  Powder cannot develop prints beyond a certain point in time.

FBI experiments showed that twenty-four hours was a likely maximum time between the print being placed on the box and the time it was developed by the powder.  However, Latona would only state that he could only testify with certainty that the print was less than three days old.

Arthur Mandella (fingerprint expert, NYPD), examined the prints and agreed that they belonged to Oswald.  Mandella was of the opinion that the palmprint developed by Day (using the powder) from the box on the floor (the one used as a seat) was probably made within a day to a day and a half of the examination made on the 22nd.

Oswald could obviously have handled the boxes as part of his normal work duties.  Fingerprints were taken from the twelve Depository employees who may have had cause to handle the boxes (found in the sniper's nest) as part of their normal work duties as well.

Other identifiable prints were developed on the boxes.  These prints were compared with the fingerprints of all other employees as well as law enforcement personnel who handled the boxes.  None of the identifiable prints belonged to any of the other employees.

Point being, the larger box on the sniper's nest floor used as a seat, was moved by the floor laying crew at some point earlier in the week.  Day dusted this box with powder and developed a palmprint, which Latona said belonged to Oswald.  The process of using the powder develops prints based on perspiration and therefore would not find prints older than one to three days (time frame dependent on which fingerprint expert you listen to).

While it's possible to handle the boxes and not leave a print at all, it's also likely as possible that Oswald was the only person to handle that box at any point in time past Tuesday the 19th (per Latona's three days out).  Or, if you go by Mandella of the NYPD, Oswald could have been the only person to handle that box after Wednesday the 20th.  If you go by the FBI's experiments, Oswald was possibly the only person to handle that box after Thursday the 21st.

Oswald's prints on the boxes prove he was in that window, but they can't prove when he was there exactly.

In "the Sniper's Nest"... LOL! There is no evidence supporting that there was a Sniper's Nest at 12:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963, therefore, the rest of your post is nothing but hypothetical.

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2019, 10:55:32 PM »
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"Oswald's prints on the boxes prove he was in that window, but they can't prove when he was there exactly."

Sorry Bill, it does nothing of the kind. It may prove he handled the boxes, but it doesn't prove he was there.

Bingo Ray. The FBI expert couldn't say how old the prints were either. LHO worked there so of course he touched boxes.

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2019, 10:55:32 PM »

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2019, 10:58:16 PM »
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Yep. Just a coincidence that Oswald's prints were found in a position that would indicate handling the box in such a way so as to position it in a precise direction; ie straight down Broadway.

The prints are worthless. The FBI expert admitted without examining LHO's hands, and he never did, he was simply taking what were CLAIMED to be LHO's prints and going from there.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2019, 01:33:16 AM »
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Describe this 'questionable validity' of yours and keep in mind that the angled tip of the front-most box was seen in Dilliard seconds after the final shot.

Re any 'evasiveness' from me, you've just answered that yourself in this comment to Charles:
Martin@Charles: "If I recall correctly, Alyea's film of the area also does not show the paper bag in situ, nor it's removal from the sniper's nest, which either indicates that the bag wasn't there to begin with or it was already removed by somebody"

Brilliant "logic"!

You claim that the photo was taken with the boxes in situ. For that claim to be true and of any value you need to presume that the crime scene was not previously contaminated, but you have in fact no way of knowing if anybody had messed with the scene already. In fact, by claiming at the same time that the paper bag had already been removed, you seem to accept and are in fact arguing that somebody did in fact tamper with the scene before the photo was taken, making your initial claim completely invalid.

Why in the world would anybody remove evidence from a crime scene before a picture of that scene was taken? And if the paper bag was indeed removed, who removed it and for what purpose? And how in the world can you be sure that anything in the photo is in fact in situ and authentic, when you already accept that evidence was removed from the scene prior to the picture being taken? 
 

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2019, 01:33:16 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2019, 01:45:44 AM »
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You haven't changed your very annoying habit of trying to tell people that they said something that they didn't say. Bill didn't say nobody messed with the crime scene before that picture was taken. He said the boxes were photographed in the position they were found before removing them for fingerprinting.


Yes, he did say that, but he presented the photograph as proof that the items were in situ, to support his claim that the prints on the boxes were pointing in a particular direction.

If you can't read between the lines or understand the connection between his first comment and the presentation of the picture, that's really not my problem, is it now?

Bill seems to have accepted since that at least the paper bag was removed from the scene prior to the photograph being taken. In my book removing evidence from a crime scene is evidence tampering and a contamination of the crime scene. Do you agree?

So, in your mind, what is the value of a picture taken of an already contaminated crime scene? Is there any way to determine that the contamination of the crime scene was limited to the removal of one item?

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2019, 01:45:44 AM »

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2019, 06:31:00 AM »
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In "the Sniper's Nest"... LOL! There is no evidence supporting that there was a Sniper's Nest at 12:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963, therefore, the rest of your post is nothing but hypothetical.

Caprio,

Had there really been a sniper's nest at that window at 12:30, what kind of evidence of it would you reasonably expect to exist?

A well-exposed 35mm color film taken from that part of the sixth floor at the time, accompanied by notarized statements from the photographer and his or her helpers?

Or ... gasp ... boxes arranged in that configuration with ... gasp ... the sniper's fingerprints on them?

-- MWT  :)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 09:01:51 PM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2019, 08:59:18 AM »
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The prints are worthless. The FBI expert admitted without examining LHO's hands, and he never did, he was simply taking what were CLAIMED to be LHO's prints and going from there.

Name the expert and provide a link to that.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 10:20:05 AM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Rolling Readers & Murdered Leaders
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2019, 08:59:18 AM »

 

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