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Author Topic: Proving the passage was clear.  (Read 994 times)

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2019, 02:18:33 AM »
Martin, I pretty sure that we already went over that some time ago. It's possible that Oswald had stepped just inside the door to the vestibule leading to the lunchroom proper and stopped there until seeing the police officer pop into view. On an early descent, Adams and Styles would have been ahead of Oswald, not behind him.

In this scenario Adams and Styles had to have been out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker were approaching the Elevators.

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2019, 02:18:33 AM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2019, 02:35:56 AM »
Why are you being so sanctimonious, when it is obvious what you were trying to do?

The fact remains that you have zero evidence that the vision to the stairs was somehow blocked, which is exactly you were trying to imply…. and failed.

Here's some other floors in the same building, showing what looks like a typical warehouse that puts stuff wherever they can, because that is the basic function of these warehouses, you know to store stuff, that is all except the fourth floor which was filled with glass boxes full of glass.
Crimes are solved by following patterns.







JohnM


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2019, 02:44:24 AM »
In this scenario Adams and Styles had to have been out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker were approaching the Elevators.

That is correct. They were something else weren't they?

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2019, 02:44:24 AM »


Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2019, 03:34:47 AM »
Unless someone can show a photo of the view from the fourth floor stock room facing towards the stairwell, then the claim that Hollies and Foster had a clear view of the entrance to the stairs is meaningless.

Tim,

I'd agree that just don't know what they may or not have seen and it appears that we will  never know, due to the lack of pictures of the 4th floor and more importantly the negligent failure of the investigations to question the people.
Did the staff in the SW room see T&B? Did they see Garner? We just do not know.

Just as no one asked Dorman, if she knew when Adams and Styles left.


Back to my original post, you have a suspect that you believed traversed a precise path, within a narrow period of time. Confirming that the path was clear to be traversed should have been the next priority after confirming the path and the timings.
It wasn't a hard task, just ask each of the know people between the 2nd and 6th, if they were in a position to the view the stairs. Explain to me why that isn't a reasonable step for a half competent investigation to have undertaken.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2019, 03:57:41 AM »
Tim,

I'd agree that just don't know what they may or not have seen and it appears that we will  never know, due to the lack of pictures of the 4th floor and more importantly the negligent failure of the investigations to question the people.
Did the staff in the SW room see T&B? Did they see Garner? We just do not know.

Just as no one asked Dorman, if she knew when Adams and Styles left.


Back to my original post, you have a suspect that you believed traversed a precise path, within a narrow period of time. Confirming that the path was clear to be traversed should have been the next priority after confirming the path and the timings.
It wasn't a hard task, just ask each of the know people between the 2nd and 6th, if they were in a position to the view the stairs. Explain to me why that isn't a reasonable step for a half competent investigation to have undertaken.

It wasn't an unreasonable step for a competent investigation to have undertaken. Whether it was undertaken or not I cannot say.  If they did , i'm not aware of any publication of the results. There's nothing we can do about it. We can only work with what we've got.  I realize that doesn't work very well from the CT perspective but it is what it is.  CTs tend to what to avoid or dismiss what we have available to us and instead focus on things that they think that we should have.

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2019, 03:57:41 AM »


Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2019, 04:47:30 AM »
Tim,

I don't see myself as a CT, I don't believe in any conspiracy theories.
I just think that there are sizeable gaps in the evidence that the investigation should have cleared up.
I think it very unlikely that they asked about viewing the stairs and this information has been hidden and not revealed in any report, that would in fact be believing a CT (albeit a post shooting CT). I tend to not blame on malice what is explainable as negligence.

1) As per this tread, the failure to confirm that the path was clear to traverse, especially once they knew of Adams (and Garner's, if Stroud doc is genuine) testimony.
2) That they left Hine and Reid with contradictory testimonies, especially given the use of Reid in confirming Oswald's path and timing. Hine testifies to returning an empty office area, and seeing Reid reenter with others. Reid enters by herself and makes no mention of Hine. Reid was the senior staff member, who left Hine to cover for her staff on the phones, I find it personally incredible that her first action on re-entry was not to find Hine (who had volunteered to cover other staffs role) and inform her what had happened. Your in charge, you leave someone to cover for your team, you've just seen the President shot, the staff you left is absent but she doesn't seem to be the least bit concerned. Each of them should have been challenged with the others story, as it seems implausible that they both be true.


I won't go rehash all the other not fully explored issues but these two bug me, as they could and should have been resolved.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 04:51:23 AM by Anthony Clayden »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2019, 06:12:07 AM »
Since the fastest probable time for a shooter from 6th floor SE window of the TSBD whom had to wipe prints off, after slowly withdrawing rifle, and squeezing out of cramped SN, cross 180ft to boxes and wedge rifle in a narrow gap, is probably at least 30 sec post shots..

and since the fastest probable descent time per floor going down is approx. 10sec/floor
then its going to take the shooter at least 53 secs post shots to be completely past the 4th floor landing and halfway down the 4th floor staircase to be out of LOS of anyone who was standing with LOS to the staircase earlier than 53 sec post shots.

The question is, if Dorothy Garner would have waited 53 sec after having seen Adams and Styles leave the office window and go out the door, before following them out herself. And how probable is it that Garner would remember a 53 sec delay as having followed "almost immediately" and "right behind" A&S?

This might be resolve more definitively if Mrs Garner could elaborate on exactly what she "heard" when she told Barry Ernest about having "heard them" on the staircase, as opposed to having actually seen A&S, as the original statement in the Belin memo described.

IF Garner heard voices, its not very probable to have emerged at 53 sec posts shots and then it takes another 10 sec to travel to the staircase west window, such that Garner would have heard voices at 63 sec post shots. V.Adams and Styles would on the 1st floor then, and very probably just exiting the rollup door right beside the west elevator. Could their voices at normal decibel range have carried up the open elevator shaft as far as the 4th floor?

IDK!? Its apparent that SHOUTING down the elevator shaft from 5th or 6th floor can be heard by people on the elevator going down the shaft as per Oswald haveing been heard.

But Truly shouted UP the elevator shaft at about 70 sec post shots, and no one seems to have heard that, including Jack Dougherty who was only 10 ft away from the shaft according to JD.

So IDK if it can be 100% ruled out as impossible that Garner could have heard the voices of V.Adams and Styles as they reached the ground floor at approx 60 sec post shots as they were going past the west elevator open shaft, which was open all the way to the 4th floor, since both elevators were fixed on the 5th floor at that time, via by Truly seeing them at 70 sec post shots.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 06:17:53 AM by Zeon Mason »

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2019, 06:12:07 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2019, 06:38:41 AM »
In this scenario Adams and Styles had to have been out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker were approaching the Elevators.


Do you see any other alternative, Colin. For Tim's/LNs later time, for Dorothy Garner to see Baker and Truly "coming up" the staircase only after A&S have been seen  "heard" going down the staircase, the time would have been at least 6 min post shots, after Baker and Truly came down from the roof of the TSBD using the EAST elevator. The East elevator has a solid back, so the only way to see anyone on the elevator from the 4th floor office would be from the exit door nearest the passenger elevator. Dorothy Garner, however, supposedly went to stand near the rear staircase and was looking out the WEST window nearby the staircase. So from that angle, could NOT have seen anyone on the EAST elevator whom remained IN the elevator, as did Baker and Truly. They did NOT exit, as I remember.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 07:05:30 AM by Zeon Mason »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2019, 07:00:23 AM »
Tim,

I don't see myself as a CT, I don't believe in any conspiracy theories.
I just think that there are sizeable gaps in the evidence that the investigation should have cleared up.
I think it very unlikely that they asked about viewing the stairs and this information has been hidden and not revealed in any report, that would in fact be believing a CT (albeit a post shooting CT). I tend to not blame on malice what is explainable as negligence.

1) As per this tread, the failure to confirm that the path was clear to traverse, especially once they knew of Adams (and Garner's, if Stroud doc is genuine) testimony.
2) That they left Hine and Reid with contradictory testimonies, especially given the use of Reid in confirming Oswald's path and timing. Hine testifies to returning an empty office area, and seeing Reid reenter with others. Reid enters by herself and makes no mention of Hine. Reid was the senior staff member, who left Hine to cover for her staff on the phones, I find it personally incredible that her first action on re-entry was not to find Hine (who had volunteered to cover other staffs role) and inform her what had happened. Your in charge, you leave someone to cover for your team, you've just seen the President shot, the staff you left is absent but she doesn't seem to be the least bit concerned. Each of them should have been challenged with the others story, as it seems implausible that they both be true.


I won't go rehash all the other not fully explored issues but these two bug me, as they could and should have been resolved.

Anthony, I apologize if I offended you with my use of the CT label. It's a term that I apply with a wide brush. One that often covers those who don't actually have a theory of their own but who just question the primary conclusion of the Warren Commission.

For now, I just want to address the part of your post that I've bolded. Hines' testimony may appear to conflict with Reid's but there are a couple of parts of her testimony that you have overlooked or left out.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.
Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir.
I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it and so I was busy with the phone.
...............................
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir
; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.


Her testimony is rather contradictory in itself don't you think?
 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 07:28:02 AM by Tim Nickerson »

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2019, 07:00:23 AM »


Online Colin Crow

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2019, 07:04:12 AM »

Do you see any other alternative, Colin. For Tim's/LNs later time, for Dorothy Garner to see Baker and Truly "coming up" the staircase only after A&S have been seen  "heard" going down the staircase, the time would have been at least 6 min post shots, after Baker and Truly came down from the roof of the TSBD using the EAST elevator. The East elevator has a solid back, so the only way to see anyone on the elevator from the 4th floor office would be from the exit door nearest the passenger elevator. Dorothy Garner, however, supposedly went to stand near the rear staircase and was looking out the WEST window nearby the staircase. So from that angle, could NOT have seen anyone on the EAST elevator whom remained IN the elevator, as did Baker and Truly. They did NOT exit, as I remember.

Don't think women at west windows on 4th floor could see through to east elevator. Seem to remember a solid back would prevent that. Bah....now I am going to have to check if Sawyer interacted with Baker and Truly when they were descending on the elevator.....I seem to remember something like that occurred. I have a timeline for Sawyer back at front of TSBD after returning from 4th floor.

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2019, 07:04:12 AM »