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Author Topic: Proving the passage was clear.  (Read 991 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 05:01:06 AM »
Dougherty was reliable enough to fill orders and check the fire alarm each morning.

Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh---shipping clerk.
 Mr. BALL - And what kind of work is that?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the---they are orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that---that's it.
 
 Mr. BALL - What time did you go to work?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I got there---it was after 7 o'clock in the morning.
 Mr. BALL - Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
 Mr. BALL - Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the men get there?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say, I have a little---extra chores to do.
 Mr. BALL - You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years.
 Mr. BALL - That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early.
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
 Mr. BALL - And you did get there about 7 that morning?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
 Mr. BALL - Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores--what are those extra chores?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. In other words, the air pressure is up to where---up to 40 pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call me.
 Mr. BALL - What is the ADT?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's that---I don't know too much about it---it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there.
 Mr. BALL - You mean the pressure, do you?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes
 Mr. BALL - Is that a fire-alarm system?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--you could call it that.
 Mr. BALL - Now, what else do you do there early in the morning?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is no leaks ,in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere.
 Mr. BALL - Anything else you do?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - No; I believe that just about covers it.

I believe he became "more confused" or distressed after the shooting (comment from Truly) and possible "less reliable".

His was quite specific about his position at the time he heard the rifle shot.

Mr. BALL - Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the west side of the elevator.



Here is a picture that you can use as a reference.



Was Dougherty retrieving stock from the boxes to the left of the picture? As the elevator gates were left open at this time, one assumes he was not far from the only elevator that could be "called" at that time. The east elevator was on the same floor. Dougherty was assumed to have moved the west elevator by the time Baker and Truly arrived. Where did it go?



Another inconvenience that needed to be clarified, Williams also not very reliable after the shooting it seems. Must have been confused or misunderstood by the FBI. Easy mistake to make.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.
Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.



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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 05:01:06 AM »


Online Alan Ford

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2019, 05:04:51 AM »
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.
Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.




So we can't be confident that Mr Dougherty brought down the west elevator just after the assassination?

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2019, 05:10:13 AM »
You are right. There were only four women in that office.Hollies and Foster were in another room.

They were in the supply room on the southwest corner which had a cage north wall. They would have had a view of the staircase.

Quote
Styles was adamant that they never left right away. No less than a minute she said.

Any particular reason to prefer Styles over Adams?

Quote
With the speedsters in their three inch heeled shoes clop clop clopping on the wooden stairs, Oswald was able to follow behind, with any noise that he may have been making being drowned out by that of the speedsters.

Any good reason to think they “drowned out” anything, or is it just a convenient excuse?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 05:11:52 AM by John Iacoletti »

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2019, 05:10:13 AM »


Online Bill Chapman

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2019, 05:25:36 AM »
They were in the supply room on the southwest corner which had a cage north wall. They would have had a view of the staircase.

Any particular reason to prefer Styles over Adams?

Any good reason to think they “drowned out” anything, or is it just a convenient excuse?

Tell us what you would do if you wanted to descend a staircase undetected and heard someone else's footsteps on said staircase.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 06:36:33 PM by Bill Chapman »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2019, 05:44:12 AM »
Did Dougherty have a hearing issue? Those that do can often mistaken for being confused or of low intelligence.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

If Dougherty misheard the question as.....Did you ever leave the State during the War?
his answer becomes reasonable

............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.

Are you questioning Ball's intelligence or Dougherty's, there are 60 minutes in a full hour? Dougherty was merely explaining what he usually did.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.

He is relating when he went back to work that day.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.

Dougherty had gone to the 6th floor just before 12.30 to continue work. He heard a shot and went down to the first floor. He then went back to work upstairs. He was spotted on the 5th floor by Truly who was coming down from the 7th floor with Baker. This would have been about 10 minutes after the shooting. Perhaps Dougherty is talking about the second occasion he visited the 6th floor. in any event it is only an approximation.

Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.

See above

Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.

I wonder if Dougherty heard this as "Now, When you left for lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work? He merely informs that when he went down to lunch he left from the 5th floor.

Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---

Now he gets back to the original theme......his position at the time of the noise he heard.

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.

Let's move a couple of question marks......

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch?
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.

Who knows, maybe he thought it was an instruction. Do you doubt Dougherty was close to the 5th floor west elevator at the time of the shots? Do you believe it was he who moved the elevator from the 5th floor some time after Truly called for it and the time he arrived on the 5th floor? This would have been between 1 and about 4 minutes after the shots.

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2019, 05:44:12 AM »


Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2019, 06:13:10 AM »
Tim,

Styles was not adamant, she was most varied of the three woman we have record.

Adams maintains an almost instant departure and is consistent and adamant.
Garner says they left before she noticed and she immediately followed them heard them descending on the stairs and then sees T&B coming up. Inferring a very early leaving by A&S unless you want a much latter ascent by T&B and Reid.
Even Dorman gives an sense o urgency to her departure and as I said describe her following Garner with the word "run".

Styles gives varied vague estimates, almost wanting to agree with whatever anyone suggest to her.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2019, 06:27:20 AM »
Tim,

Styles was not adamant, she was most varied of the three woman we have record.

Adams maintains an almost instant departure and is consistent and adamant.
Garner says they left before she noticed and she immediately followed them heard them descending on the stairs and then sees T&B coming up. Inferring a very early leaving by A&S unless you want a much latter ascent by T&B and Reid.
Even Dorman gives an sense o urgency to her departure and as I said describe her following Garner with the word "run".

Styles gives varied vague estimates, almost wanting to agree with whatever anyone suggest to her.

According to the account given by Sean Murphy, Styles thought that they had left quite a bit later than Adams'  recalled. Styles went on to give up on some of that time but then finished with "no less than a minute".  Adams seems to have been a bit unstable.   Her signed and notated deposition speaks for itself though. The encounter with Lovelady and Shelley rules out an early descent.

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2019, 06:27:20 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2019, 06:27:59 AM »
Did Dougherty have a hearing issue? Those that do can often mistaken for being confused or of low intelligence.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

If Dougherty misheard the question as.....Did you ever leave the State during the War?
his answer becomes reasonable

............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.

Are you questioning Ball's intelligence or Dougherty's, there are 60 minutes in a full hour? Dougherty was merely explaining what he usually did.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.

He is relating when he went back to work that day.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.

Dougherty had gone to the 6th floor just before 12.30 to continue work. He heard a shot and went down to the first floor. He then went back to work upstairs. He was spotted on the 5th floor by Truly who was coming down from the 7th floor with Baker. This would have been about 10 minutes after the shooting. Perhaps Dougherty is talking about the second occasion he visited the 6th floor. in any event it is only an approximation.

Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.

See above

Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.

I wonder if Dougherty heard this as "Now, When you left for lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work? He merely informs that when he went down to lunch he left from the 5th floor.

Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---

Now he gets back to the original theme......his position at the time of the noise he heard.

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.

Let's move a couple of question marks......

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch?
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.

Who knows, maybe he thought it was an instruction. Do you doubt Dougherty was close to the 5th floor west elevator at the time of the shots? Do you believe it was he who moved the elevator from the 5th floor some time after Truly called for it and the time he arrived on the 5th floor? This would have been between 1 and about 4 minutes after the shots.

Why even bother?

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2019, 06:29:14 AM »
So we can't be confident that Mr Dougherty brought down the west elevator just after the assassination?

I would say no.

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2019, 06:29:14 AM »


Online Colin Crow

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2019, 07:06:54 AM »
Why even bother?

Do you mean as a comment in addressing my original post? If so you didn't.

If it was a comment relating to the original investigation, they didn't.

We are left with the situation that either Dougherty moved the elevator or an unknown did, someone who was not an employee or an accused assassin.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 08:38:23 AM by Colin Crow »

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2019, 07:06:54 AM »