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Author Topic: Collaborative Timeline Project  (Read 2627 times)

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2019, 11:57:10 AM »
Thanks Tom. Will crosscheck from the material I can get hold of. I found in a SS report of 12/18/63 that Decker recalled Sorrels leaving Parkland before him. Decker got a ride to the TSBD shortly after.

We have this from Mooney....

"So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.
Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up."

So it seems Fritz and Decker we?re outside the TSBD entrance when Mooney found the shells.

In reading Gerald Hill's account he claimed to call down to get the crime lab up. Was not sure if anyone heard him and decided to go down. On his way down he met Fritz coming up in the elevator and told him of the discovery. He continued downstairs and say Day and told him. Then went to Sawyer. At this time the fire truck rolled up and Owens reported to Sawyer.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 12:53:39 PM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2019, 03:31:21 PM »
Mr. BELIN - You then got on the elevator to go on back down?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct.
Mr. BELIN - And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct.
Mr. BELIN - How far did you take the east elevator down?
Mr. BAKER - As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and I was still looking over the building.
Mr. BELIN - As the elevator was moving?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; downward.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. DULLES - City of Dallas Police?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down.
Mr. BELIN - Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?
Mr. BAKER - It was a little over 5 minutes.

So Sawyer was still on the 4th floor as Baker and Truly were descending from the roof.

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2019, 06:32:16 AM »
Note that Sims and Boyd were accompanying Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?
Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.
Mr. BALL. What officer was that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know whether he did because I couldn't watch him.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors.
Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with?
Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top.
Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me (likely Gerald Hill) and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.
Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.

So it seems that Fritz did not hear Mooney's call. Fritz and his men went inside and began searching thebuilding for a gunman. Only later was he informed of the discovery of the shells. This would explain the six minute or so time gap between the SN discovery and the arrival of Fritz in that location. Hill testified he talked to Fritz about the SN discovery and so I have added that in bold to Fritz's testimony.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 06:59:01 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2019, 07:10:11 AM »
Not sure if this is specific enough to be helpful.

http://jfk.hood.edu/?.   Page 3, last paragraph

Cites for Decker arriving before Fritz, after Mooney found the hulls, before the rifle was found at 1:22.

Mr. BALL. Did you go back there back to Elm and Houston?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill Decker rode back with us.

Mr. BALL. Did you go over there?
Mr. BOYD. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with--Mr. Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also out there, and he rode back down with us.

Found this Tom, seems like Decker jumped in Fritz's car at Parkland. If they arrived together at the front of the TSBD about 12.58 and went inside shortly after and Mooney saw them below when he found the shells it might make the SN discovery closer to 1pm.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 07:31:29 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 04:34:46 PM »
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-002.gif

Senkel is ordered by Fritz to take those on working 6th floor that day to HQ for statements.

Arrive at city hall at about 1.50, just before Oswald arrives in custody.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-003.gif
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 04:39:50 PM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2019, 03:59:17 AM »
Oswald arraigned for murder of JFK by Judge Johnston in 4th floor ID bureau at 1:35 a.m 23rd November 1963.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_tl.htm

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2019, 04:56:58 AM »
Oswald arraigned for murder of JFK by Judge Johnston in 4th floor ID bureau at 1:35 a.m 23rd November 1963.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_tl.htm

The Anthony Summers Collection: Goddess, Not in Your Lifetime, and Official ...
By Anthony Summers

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2019, 05:53:44 AM »
Trying to get a timestamp for the conversation between Truly and Fritz about Oswald missing.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex, or the place to go to in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor. He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the address they gave us--it was in Irving, Tex.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?
Mr. BOYD. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see him a minute before he left, and Ave went in there and while we were in there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted to go by there and we carried him there.
Mr. BALL. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had been arrested for the murder of Tippit?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we started to Irving.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the suspect for the murder of Tippit?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when we heard about him being arrested over there.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz?
Mr. BOYD. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. And then you went with Fritz up to your office?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you remember?
Mr. BOYD. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there.
Mr. BALL. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there---I don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office and he talked to him in there.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was?
Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; yes, sir.

Boyd seems somewhat confused but Fritz was leaving the TSBD and going across the street to see Decker at about 1.40pm. The rifle was found at 1.22pm.

Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a minute or two. Let's see we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have to look at the record---on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently about 2 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. You and who?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall.
Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out in the corridor there.
Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building?

Here is what Fritz recalled.....

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.

What did Truly say?

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect. And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.

My best guess is that this conversation occurs after the rifle discovery (in the northwest corner) and while Day is over by the western windows fingerprinting it. Somewhere around 1.45pm would be my best guess.


Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2019, 06:37:24 AM »
The time Frazier went down to the basement for lunch and returned.

Mr. BALL - Come back up?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.

Given that the shooting occurred at 12.30 and that the normal lunch time was 12-12.45pm, this suggests that Frazier spent 5 minutes after the shooting before going down to the basement to eat and came back up at 12.45pm.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 09:49:02 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Collaborative Timeline Project
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2019, 05:15:11 AM »
Some good information from Sweatt.....my comments in bold.

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

Name of Complainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy
Offense
ALLAN SWEATT, Chief Criminal Deputy, Dallas County Sheriff's Office.

Date: Nov 23, 1963

At approximately 12:30 PM, Friday, November 22, 1963, I was standing with a group of Deputy Sheriff's about 30 feat east of the corner of Houston and Main Street on Main Street.

The president's caravan had just passed and about a minute or 2 I heard a shot and about 7 seconds later another shot and approximately 2 or 3 seconds later a third shot which sounded to me like a rifle and coming from the vicinity of Elm and Houston street. Several officers and myself from the Sheriff's department ran around the corner and towards Elm Street and Houston and were told that someone had shot at the President. A man by the name of "Hester" told Deputy John Wiseman that the shots had come from the old Sexton building (aka TSBD). As we approached the building we were told the shots had come from the fence. Deputy Wiseman and a City Officer went to the front door of the building and I continued towards the railroad yards with Deputy Harry Weatherford and I stopped where I could see two sides of the building which was the west and south sides. Deputy Harry Weatherford went into the building through an open window on the 1st floor (this can be seen in a famous photo)and Deputy Wiseman and the DPD officer went in the front door. On the far side of the building opposite me were some DPD Officers. At that time I was told the President had been shot and that Governor Connally also had been shot.

Officers started coming to the scene and approximately 15 deputy sheriff's and a number of DPD officers were at location. At this time, Inspector Sawyer of the DPD came to the front of the building and started taking names of witnesses and I suggested to inspector Sawyer that I get two deputies and send the witnesses to the Sheriff's Office for statements instead of letting the witnesses leave the scene. Inspector Sawyer agreed with this plan and as witnesses were brought together they were taken directly across the street to the Sheriff's Office to wait until statements could be taken. (this is the first bunch of witnesses taken by Walthers)

While I was still at the front of the Building, Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney stuck his head out of the 5th floor window and the Northeast corner of the building and stated he had found some spent cartridge cases and he was told to let them remain untouched until the DPD Crime Lab arrived on the scene. ( so the witnesses went to the Sherrif's office before Mooney found the shells).

Shortly after, a DPD officer brought a boy in a sport coat up and said "here is the man that had done the shooting". As officers started to question him, the crowd began to talk and pass the word around that this was the individual that had shot the President. At that time, in the company of the city officers, I sent 2 deputy sheriff's to take this man into custody and to take him to the Sheriff's office. Also Inspector Sawyer was informed of this and he sent a DPD detective to the Sheriff's office to talk to the boy. (I assume this was Larry Florer, found in the Dal-Tex)

At this time Sheriff Bill Decker arrived at the location where I was standing and I informed him as to what had been done up to that time. I then returned to the Sheriff's Office to coordinate the taking of statements and see that all persons that were in the office gave statements. I separated certain witnesses who seemed to have more facts than others and turned them over to Mrs. Rosemarry Allen of the Dallas Sheriff's office, Mr. Wallace Heitman of the FBI and Mr. Forrest Sorrells of the Secret Service, and they took witnesses to the Polygraph room of the Sheriff's Office where they obtained statements.

At approximately 1:30 PM, I received word that a Police Officer had been shot on Jefferson Street in Oak Cliff and the suspect was supposedly at large in that area. (I think that 1.30pm might be a bit late for this? Surely news of an officer being shot would travel quickly).I immediately dispatched Officer's Buddy Walthers, James Ramsey, an Frank Vrla to the scene of the shooting (Walthers stated that he was involved in surrounding the library, looking for the Tippet assailant. The library call came at 1.34pm). Officer Bill Courson of the Sheriff's Office joined with them in Oak Cliff. Apprehension was made of the suspect in the Texas Theatre and suspect was turned over to the Dallas Police Department.

After this we correlated all statements, getting copies separated and in separate files. Sent a complete set of all statements taken to Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police Department

During this time, Deputy Bill Wiseman brought in two girls to me with some pictures they had taken. 1 picture was taken just shortly before the shooting of the President which shows the Sexton Building in the background. This picture was turned over to Secret Service Agent Patterson, who gave this woman his card, advising her that the picture would be returned to her.

I also received copies of pictures taken from a witness by name of "Betzner, Jr.", which have been included in the files of this case.

I have contacted all Deputies to come in this date and make their supplements of activities during the day of November 22nd, 1963.

I still have in my custody all original statements, supplements and copies of pictures by Betzner subject.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 05:38:11 AM by Colin Crow »

 

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