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Author Topic: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from  (Read 2743 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 12:32:34 AM »
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One needs to look at the situation as it developed to get a better understanding of the sequence and timing of events. Brennan did not immediately run across the street and talk to ploice. Barnett (from memory) was the officer closest to the TSBD entrance and he initially went west and up Houston towards the rear of the building, trying to cover the rear and side fire escape. He returned after a minute or so. I believe he is the first officer that Brennan talked to and it was during Barnett's return to the TSBD entrance.

Many police deputies has gone towards the railyards and the instruction from the motorcade was to search there. Back at the TSBD I believe Sawyer had arrived some minutes later and after brief conversation that gave him some indication of an upper floor, took the passenger elevator with some other officers and could go no further that the 4th floor. Here he met briefly with Truly and Baker coming down on the east freight elevator from the roof. This must have been at least  five or maybe 10 minutes after the shots. Total confusion reigned. Sawyer returned to the entrance. Mooney and other sherrifs deputies (Boone, Craig, Walters, Weatherford etc) eventually headed to the TSBD and began a "ramshackle" search. It does not appear to be coordinated in any meaningful way. I do not believe Brennan's precise "shooter location" was communicated to the people undertaking the search at all. Mooney was unaware of Brennan?s observation and the SN was "stumbled" upon independently.

If Brennan reported that he'd seen a gunman aiming a rifle from that SE corner window at approximately 12:40 then why wasn't a investigator dispatched immediately to that site...  We know that officers on the scene were reporting to headquarters and headquarters broadcast a APB for the suspect at 12:45....So how do you explain Mooney simply stumbling upon the spent shells behind the SE corner window at 1:06?   

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 12:32:34 AM »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2019, 03:09:02 AM »
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If Brennan reported that he'd seen a gunman aiming a rifle from that SE corner window at approximately 12:40 then why wasn't a investigator dispatched immediately to that site...  We know that officers on the scene were reporting to headquarters and headquarters broadcast a APB for the suspect at 12:45....So how do you explain Mooney simply stumbling upon the spent shells behind the SE corner window at 1:06?

What was more important at the time? Someone saw a man with a gun firing from the SE window of an upper floor. There have been several minutes pass by since the shots. How is that information communicated effectively. Do you send officers to that specific location? Do you block the exits? Do you organise a systematic search from the ground up? How is this organised?

What really happened was what I summarised in the previous post. Sawyer charging up using the "wrong" elevator. Other deputies (eg Mooney) entering via the rear door and simply looking around for anyone suspicious it seems. In other words "chaos" reigned supreme. Not everything needs to have sinister overtones......for all we know Brennan might have said the "top floor" to Sawyer who simply got to the top floor (4th) of the passenger elevator. Then saw Truly and Baker coming down, who reported the coast was clear on the upper floors. At that time determining whether there was a gunman loose in the building was surely a higher priority than visualising where he had been.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2019, 12:36:03 PM »
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What was more important at the time? Someone saw a man with a gun firing from the SE window of an upper floor. There have been several minutes pass by since the shots. How is that information communicated effectively. Do you send officers to that specific location? Do you block the exits? Do you organise a systematic search from the ground up? How is this organised?

What really happened was what I summarised in the previous post. Sawyer charging up using the "wrong" elevator. Other deputies (eg Mooney) entering via the rear door and simply looking around for anyone suspicious it seems. In other words "chaos" reigned supreme. Not everything needs to have sinister overtones......for all we know Brennan might have said the "top floor" to Sawyer who simply got to the top floor (4th) of the passenger elevator. Then saw Truly and Baker coming down, who reported the coast was clear on the upper floors. At that time determining whether there was a gunman loose in the building was surely a higher priority than visualising where he had been.

Your point about chaos and priorities is well taken, Mr Crow!  Thumb1:

However... it is very odd IMO that Mr Brennan's quick, clear and highly specific information as to which window the gunman had fired from would have failed to result in someone checking out the window in question. Instead we get many minutes of aimless searching that culminates in a 'Hey look, guys, there's shells under this here window!' moment.

It almost seems as if not one witness pointed them to that window...

Cf Patrolman J. J. Hill's 12:37 dispatch:

"Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end."

« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 12:49:24 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2019, 12:36:03 PM »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2019, 01:41:52 PM »
I agree that it seems to be an extended period for the SN to be "discovered". But it appears that little was coordinated in any meaningful way for some time. There were at least two uniformed police (Barnett and Smith) close to the TSBD at the time of the shots.Smith ran almost immediately towards the east and Barnett to the west as mentioned previously. I think Brennan approached Barnett on his way back towards the TSBD entrance. Sawyer appeared at the entrance via car some minutes later. Baker had already run inside.

There was no adequate sealing of the building. We know many employees entered the building and some managed to get out. Sherrifs deputies entered after searching the railyards. How was Brennan?s message conveyed to any of these groups? Sorrels arrived at the TSBD from Parkland and I believe attempted to instigate some order. In any event I would think the immediate priority would be to determine the whereabouts of the gunman, not necessarily where he had been. I think Mooney even says a preliminary check of the 6th floor showed nothing and he discovered the shells only after coming back from the 7th floor. I am unsure of any witnesses who recalled being told of the exact location supplied from Brennan apart from Barnett and Sawyer in the first 10-15 minutes.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 01:48:13 PM »
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Your point about chaos and priorities is well taken, Mr Crow!  Thumb1:

However... it is very odd IMO that Mr Brennan's quick, clear and highly specific information as to which window the gunman had fired from would have failed to result in someone checking out the window in question. Instead we get many minutes of aimless searching that culminates in a 'Hey look, guys, there's shells under this here window!' moment.

It almost seems as if not one witness pointed them to that window...

Cf Patrolman J. J. Hill's 12:37 dispatch:

"Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end."



Of course it couldn't have been the seventh floor window because that window was closed.....And it couldn't have been the sixth floor either because the boxes would have squeezed any gunman standing there too close to tghw window to aim a rifle from that window which would have allowed Brennan to see about 85% of the HIGH POWERED rifle. 

Therefore I believe that Brennan told the police that he's seen the man STANDING AND AIMING THE HIGH POWERED  rifle behind the WIDE OPEN window at the WEST end of the sixth floor..... And that's where Arnold Rowland saw the man ......     

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 01:48:13 PM »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2019, 02:11:14 PM »
I'm not sure why Brennan is always singled out as the witness to which window the shots came from.  He is certainly an important witness since he gives his report within a few minutes and couldn't be influenced by later reports.  But Bob Jackson saw a rifle in that window and pointed it out to Couch who also saw it.  He did that at the moment of the assassination and not "after the fact."  He saw a "rifle" and not a "pipe" object.  There is no doubt that there was a person pointing a rifle out that window at the moment of the assassination.  To suggest otherwise is to be dishonest like claiming when Marina testified that she looked in the blanket and saw a "rifle" and responded dozens of times to questions about a "rifle" that she saw only something made of wood.  LOL.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 02:14:53 PM by Richard Smith »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 04:39:42 PM »
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I'm not sure why Brennan is always singled out as the witness to which window the shots came from.  He is certainly an important witness since he gives his report within a few minutes and couldn't be influenced by later reports.

We don't know what Brennan may or may not have said "within a few minutes".

Quote
  But Bob Jackson saw a rifle in that window and pointed it out to Couch who also saw it.

Jackson said "I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon, I guess I saw".  Couch said "And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel", and that was after Jackson said "there's the rifle", so it's not like it was an independent identification of an actual rifle.  Also keep in mind that these are recollections over 4 months later after the narrative was firmly planted in the American psyche.

Conclusion:  they caught a brief glimpse of something narrow sticking out of a window after hearing shots and assumed it was a rifle.  Just like Marina saw part of something in a rolled and tied blanket and assumed it was a rifle.  Ruth Paine tells us what Marina said to her before she mistranslated it to the police.

Mrs. PAINE - And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 04:39:42 PM »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2019, 04:44:43 PM »
Incidentally, here's a photo I took from Brennan's position on a recent trip to Dealey Plaza.



Jackson and Couch would have been another half a block away.

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2019, 04:44:43 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2019, 05:14:06 PM »
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We don't know what Brennan may or may not have said "within a few minutes".

Exactly, Mr Iacoletti----and the point applies to Mr Euins too, as well as to the witnesses (if neither Mr Brennan nor Mr Euins) who gave Patrolmen Hill & Brewer the information behind their 12:37 p.m. dispatches!

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2019, 05:17:45 PM »
Semi-on-topic question!

Mr Brennan, in his same-day affidavit, says:

"He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds."

What does "nice looking" mean here? Neat?

 Thumb1:


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Re: Howard Brennan showed DPD which window the shots had come from
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2019, 05:17:45 PM »

 

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