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Author Topic: BWF and LMR may not have been the only ones who saw LHO with a bag on 11/22/1963  (Read 16308 times)

Offline Richard Smith

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Mr Jack Dougherty to the Warren Commission:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.


 ???

So does that mean Oswald was not carrying a package along the size estimated by Frazier?  CTers appear to want to have it both ways.  Relying on Frazier's estimate of a bag as gospel and also citing evidence that Oswald had no long bag at all.  It has to be one or the other.  It can't be both.

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Offline Oscar Navarro

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Great, Mr Navarro, thank you! The best way to discredit one unreliable witness is without doubt to weaponize the testimony of another  :D

You want to rely on the testimony of Dougherty be my guest. What Mr. Shelley saw was the bag that held the chicken sandwich after the shooting and that's what he probably told Dougherty but, Dougherty being Dougherty, it became a good sized package. Shelley was again questioned after Dougherty and the subject didn't come up so Ball must have by then figured that Dougherty was not a very reliable witness.

Offline Alan Ford

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So does that mean Oswald was not carrying a package along the size estimated by Frazier?  CTers appear to want to have it both ways.  Relying on Frazier's estimate of a bag as gospel and also citing evidence that Oswald had no long bag at all.  It has to be one or the other.  It can't be both.

Honest researchers start with a question, kooks (of the LN or CT type) with an answer!

Something made Mr Oswald leave the Depository with undue haste, go back to his room, grab a pistol and go to a movie theatre.

You call that something, 'The fact that he had just shot JFK'. To which absurd proposition I react with a laugh!

I call that something, 'Possibly the rifle which he may, at some point, have brought into the Depository'. To which reasonable proposition you will react by repeating, automaton-like, 'He shot JFK! He shot JFK!'

A fun game!  Thumb1:

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Offline Alan Ford

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You want to rely on the testimony of Dougherty be my guest. What Mr. Shelley saw was the bag that held the chicken sandwich after the shooting and that's what he probably told Dougherty

Are you thinking of the sandwich which Mr Shelley testified he had seen Mr C. Givens eating up there earlier in the day? Or the chicken which Mr Shelley more vaguely testified "those colored boys" were always eating?

I'm beginning to see why you consider Mr Shelley such a reliable witness, Mr Navarro-----you don't know his testimony very well!  Thumb1:

Offline Richard Smith

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Honest researchers start with a question, kooks (of the LN or CT type) with an answer!

Something made Mr Oswald leave the Depository with undue haste, go back to his room, grab a pistol and go to a movie theatre.

You call that something, 'The fact that he had just shot JFK'. To which absurd proposition I react with a laugh!

I call that something, 'Possibly the rifle which he may, at some point, have brought into the Depository'. To which reasonable proposition you will react by repeating, automaton-like, 'He shot JFK! He shot JFK!'

A fun game!  Thumb1:

I'm not sure what you are babbling about here. I noted that CTers argue that Frazier's estimate of the bag Oswald carried is correct but they also cite evidence that he carried no long bag at all.  Those are mutually inconsistent claims.  They both cannot be true.  So help us here and explain which of these two you are rejecting.  You should not cite evidence that Oswald had no long bag at all if you want to maintain a claim that he carried a bag along the lines estimated by Frazier.  It is intellectually dishonest.  Not that that ever has been a cause for concern among fringe CTers.

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Offline Oscar Navarro

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Are you thinking of the sandwich which Mr Shelley testified he had seen Mr C. Givens eating up there earlier in the day? Or the chicken which Mr Shelley more vaguely testified "those colored boys" were always eating?

I'm beginning to see why you consider Mr Shelley such a reliable witness, Mr Navarro-----you don't know his testimony very well!  Thumb1:

 Mr. BALL - Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, one of the officers and they got them.
Mr. BALL - They did what?
Mr. SHELLEY - They got the bones.
Mr. BALL - Where were they?
Mr. SHELLEY - They were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window from the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL - And were they in a sack?
Mr. SHELLEY - Laying on a sack.
Mr. BALL - Laying on a sack?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window.

That's the part of the testimony I'm referring to. Now, since you're such an expert in Shelley's testimony why don't you show when it was that he saw Givens with a lunch paper sack? Also, tell us why Shelley should not be considered a reliable witness as compared to Dougherty.

Offline Alan Ford

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Mr. BALL - Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, one of the officers and they got them.
Mr. BALL - They did what?
Mr. SHELLEY - They got the bones.
Mr. BALL - Where were they?
Mr. SHELLEY - They were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window from the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL - And were they in a sack?
Mr. SHELLEY - Laying on a sack.
Mr. BALL - Laying on a sack?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window.

That's the part of the testimony I'm referring to. Now, since you're such an expert in Shelley's testimony why don't you show when it was that he saw Givens with a lunch paper sack? Also, tell us why Shelley should not be considered a reliable witness as compared to Dougherty.

Outstanding research, Mr Navarro!  Thumb1:

But! You wrote:

"What Mr. Shelley saw was the bag that held the chicken sandwich after the shooting and that's what he probably told Dougherty but, Dougherty being Dougherty, it became a good sized package."

What 'bag that held the chicken sandwich' are you talking about?

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Offline Alan Ford

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I'm not sure what you are babbling about here. I noted that CTers argue that Frazier's estimate of the bag Oswald carried is correct but they also cite evidence that he carried no long bag at all.  Those are mutually inconsistent claims.  They both cannot be true.

 :D

Which CTers argue that? Are you suggesting we all do?

Quote
  So help us here and explain which of these two you are rejecting.  You should not cite evidence that Oswald had no long bag at all if you want to maintain a claim that he carried a bag along the lines estimated by Frazier.  It is intellectually dishonest.  Not that that ever has been a cause for concern among fringe CTers.

I don't know what Mr Oswald carried to work that day, for the simple reason that I wasn't there----and that Mr Frazier is not a reliable witness on several counts! 

You do know what Mr Oswald carried to work that day, because your gullibility when it comes to the official story is without limit!

Thumb1:

Online Martin Weidmann

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Both LMR and BWF saw Oswald carry a large bag that morning and the bag was found in the SN so there is a basis for fact.

What evidence is that (other than assumption) that the bag LMR and BWF saw Oswald carry is the same one as the one that was allegedly found at the SN?

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Offline Oscar Navarro

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Outstanding research, Mr Navarro!  Thumb1:

But! You wrote:

"What Mr. Shelley saw was the bag that held the chicken sandwich after the shooting and that's what he probably told Dougherty but, Dougherty being Dougherty, it became a good sized package."

What 'bag that held the chicken sandwich' are you talking about?

The meaning is the same, Mr. Ford. The sack, or bag, relates to the chicken. Now, how about answering the questions asked.

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