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Author Topic: The assassin's lunch  (Read 3614 times)

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2018, 04:51:28 PM »
No wonder Bonnie Ray was reluctant to mention his lunch on the sixth floor SN in his initial statement. Seems he was happily eating his lunch in the SN, suddenly lost his appetite and departed after 12.27 or so. So unlucky for JFK.

Right, he would squeeze between those boxes to eat lunch in the SN instead of any number of boxes out in the open.  LOL.  If I remember correctly, you suggest the fantasy conspirators came along and shooed him away.  Astounding nonsense.  They turn him loose minutes before the assassination to potentially blow the entire conspiracy.  Instead he keeps his mouth shut for the rest of his life and doesn't even tell his buddies about this strange occurrence.  Absurd, but typical of CT mind set.  Nitpick some detail in the record and ignore all the evidence to the contrary including the statement of the individual involved.  Proof of the conspiracy is always just thwarted by someone deciding to lie.  Even random citizens.  CTers are always the bridesmaid and never the bride.

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 09:15:25 PM »
Are these "chicken bones" in addition to the ones found on the 5th floor?

Were the ones found on the 6th floor recently eaten?

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date: November 23 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dockat the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their offive. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with theese women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Victory went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books. I was at that time also checking for open windows and fire escapes. I found where someone had been using a skill saw in laying some flooring in one corner of this floor and I then went to the 7th floor and was assisting in searching it out and crawled into the attic opening and decided it was too dark and came down to order flash lights. I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by

cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signaled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webstr, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing.

At this time I continued to search this 6th floor along with many other officers and within a few minutes, I heard Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone holler out that he had found the rifle near the staircase between some rows of cartons.

We continued to search the building for a suspect.

??????????????????????????

Not sure how the "freshness" of the bones can be determined. I only assume that BRW ate fresh chicken.....maybe that?s why he left it unfinished on the box.....it was "off".

Not sure about bones on the 5th floor Steve.......don?t we have enough on the 6th to explain?

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2018, 09:26:04 PM »
Right, he would squeeze between those boxes to eat lunch in the SN instead of any number of boxes out in the open.  LOL.  If I remember correctly, you suggest the fantasy conspirators came along and shooed him away.  Astounding nonsense.  They turn him loose minutes before the assassination to potentially blow the entire conspiracy.  Instead he keeps his mouth shut for the rest of his life and doesn't even tell his buddies about this strange occurrence.  Absurd, but typical of CT mind set.  Nitpick some detail in the record and ignore all the evidence to the contrary including the statement of the individual involved.  Proof of the conspiracy is always just thwarted by someone deciding to lie.  Even random citizens.  CTers are always the bridesmaid and never the bride.

Baby steps Richard. When do you think he left the sixth floor?

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2018, 03:49:19 AM »
Nitpick some detail in the record and ignore all the evidence to the contrary including the statement of the individual involved. **

Opinionated claptrap removed for brevity**

Let?s just concentrate on the accusation that I have ignored the statement(s) of BRW (the individual involved).

Here is his handwritten statement from the afternoon of the 22nd of November.





What do we deduce from this statement......

Among other things.....

The break for lunch occurred about 11.20am.

He went to the fifth floor with Norman and Jarman just before the President passed.

He heard 2 shots (Jack N will be happy).

He was aware the shots came from above them.

He was aware Oswald was a person of interest and was under arrest.

They stayed on the west side of the floor until some officers came up.

They took the elevator to the 4th floor and then left the building.

He started work at 8am and only saw Oswald around this time.

No mention of eating lunch on the 6th floor.

About the time Williams was released the chicken, lunch bag and Dr Pepper bottle have arrived via Officer Marvin Johnson at the Police Department as part of the evidence recovered from the 6th floor crime scene. It was around this time that the WFAA-TV news report linked the lunch and pop bottle to the assassin.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 05:24:47 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 12:04:47 PM »
November 23 FBI Interview

Saturday, the day after the assassination Williams was visited by FBI  Agents Odum and Griffin and the following statement prepared following his interview with them. We must bear in mind that just 24 hours after the assassination the only people who would be aware of a gunman on the 6th floor of the TSBD as early as 12.15pm the day before  would be the assassin (s), Arnold Rowland and his wife, Roger Craig and the few police and officials who were involved with Rowland's statement (or were subsequently informed) and Rosemary Allen (the notary who signed his statement). Another person who might have known was the man who Rowland claimed to have observed in the SN prior to 12.15 until about 12.25pm





Some changes from the day before are apparent. Williams now contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD. Note the time shift to 11.30am for the descent in the elevator, effectively distancing himself by 20 minutes from the events that took place less than an hour later. In time it would be clear from the evidence of the other members of the floor laying crew and foreman Bill Shelley that the men did indeed break for lunch early but at about 11.50am. In addition he now remembered Oswald was on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn?t remember this at all. Givens was operating the other freight elevator (east) and so BRW was on west elevator. Could Williams, in the west elevator really have seen Oswald standing east of the east elevator? Others reported a similar event in their testimonies.

Significantly, he now told of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. The assassin's chicken lunch has been widely reported by now.  He claimed he went back upstairs about 12 (if we apply a 20 minute time shift correction this actually occurred closer to 12.10pm). His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch!  If we add the time shift it becomes arrives on the 6th floor at 12.10, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.13pm. Is he trying to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor from 12.15 onwards with a chicken lunch?

Williams claimed to have seen no one and goes down the stairs to the 5th floor and now meets up with Jarman and Norman. They took up a position at the southern windows at "approximately the middle of the building", not the SE corner, to watch the motorcade. He heard two shots coming from above. He did not hang his head out the window but "glanced up and saw no one". Did he not want to admit hanging out the window?

He ran to west side windows with the others and, while there, sees an officer (Baker?) come up on the elevator. Did he hear the elevator operating and assume it was Baker (and Truly) who used it? Was someone using the elevator at that time (Dougherty going up to 6?). Remember Sandra Styles claimed Adams saw the elevator cables moving when the girls descended the stairs. He stated they were standing in a position to see the stairs but saw no one other than the policeman. (Not Oswald or even Dougherty). He also stated that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and he might not notice. If at this time both elevators were supposedly locked on the 5th floor?.how was that possible?

He went to 4th floor (by elevator or stairs?) and met with women there. Williams said that no one was in the SN that morning prior to break for lunch. On the sixth floor, he went to the windows on the south side "middle of the building" and saw no one "standing". He saw Frazier on 6th floor talking to Shelley between 10 and 11am. Was this Frazier asking Shelley if the men would be allowed to stop work to get to see the President if the parade was before 12?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:00:01 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 09:38:51 AM »
On Saturday November 23 the same day Williams was talking to the FBI Junior Jarman provided the following statement to the DPD.

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

As Jarman was an order checker and not part of the floor laying crew his normal work location was the first floor. He provided a time for the floor layers departure of approximately 11.45 and an observation that Oswald ascended sometime after 11.30am. This is consistent with Oswald being observed near the east elevator on the 5th floor during the "elevator race" descent.

There are no details about anything after the shots, the sole focus of this statement is on the prime suspect Oswald and Oswald alone. Jarman offered no details about how many shots or his proximity to them. Specifically there is no mention of the three workers even on the 5th floor at 12.30pm. The implication from his statement was that Bonnie Ray was with them on the street. Worth noting he does not know Williams last name. It could mean that Williams may not have been able to contact Jarman and vice versa to discuss the events after the shooting and before the statements were taken that day.

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 10:17:28 AM »
November 24th

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:20:51 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2018, 10:30:59 AM »
On Monday the 25th Day returned to the 6th floor to process boxes and take photos. Finally the owner of the chicken lunch is identified. Bonnie Ray admits the lunch was his. Day is only vaguely aware of the bag's final resting place (with bones and unfinished piece inside) after it had been moved to that position on the 22nd, processed by Studebaker by the two-wheeler and taken to HQ by Johnson about 3pm.


Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there.
Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.
Mr. McCLOY. They were not on the bottle?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 04:49:32 AM by Colin Crow »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2018, 11:00:19 AM »
On Tuesday the 26th November Harold Norman is interviewed for the first time.



As with Jarman's initial statements there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor. Interestingly, he stated that after the first shot he stuck his head out the window and looked upward and pulled back inside after particles fell on him. There were two subsequent shots. They ran to the west end  but he returned to the original position at some later time. He did not recall seeing Oswald at any time that day.



Online Colin Crow

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Re: The assassin's lunch
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2018, 11:23:36 AM »
December 2 Secret Service Interview
In early December Williams was interviewed by the Secret Service and the following appeared as part the Secret Service Report 491 (WCD87).



In this interview less than two weeks after the assassination Williams again recalls the "elevator race" as they broke for lunch and Oswald calling for the lift. On the 6th floor he sat at windows "in the centre of the building". A Dr Pepper bottle and chicken bones  (no mention of a lunch bag) were left together on the floor. He didn't see or hear anyone and only ate his lunch for a few minutes. The lunch was "finished", not partially eaten, and he left immediately for the 5th floor before 12.15pm. (Note 12.15 is mentioned specifically!). He gets the position he was in on the 5th floor wrong. Heard only 2 shots coming from 6th floor but did not hear shells and bolt action. They went to west side windows and discussed what they should do.
A policeman was seen near the stairway but Williams did not know if he was going up or down (note no mention of arrival by the elevator now). After 5 minutes they took the stairs down.

This interview  essentially provided a similar story to the one he told the FBI the day after the assassination except for some minor variance and added details. He described the lunch consisting of a chicken bone sandwich and a Dr Pepper. Significantly he is sure he left before 12.15pm. No doubt there has been much talk between the TSBD workers of the events of November 22 in the days since it occurred. Apparently he has now abandoned the early idea of moving the lunch break forward by 20 minutes. By this time the others members of the floor laying crew have been interviewed and they generally agreed that the elevator race occurred at about 11.50am.  Remember that Carl Day tells us he spoke with the worker who ate the chicken lunch on November 25th, after Williams initial FBI interview. Day may have (inadvertently) provided a description of the rough position of the chicken and bottle as found by Studebaker after 2pm on November 22 during that discussion. He may not be aware that the bones were found in the sack.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 04:54:34 AM by Colin Crow »

 

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