The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963


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Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 01:50:50 PM »
From my memory when I looked into this years ago. There was a substantial thread on this on the old forum before the crash and all was lost.

Dispatcher   87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area.       
    78 (Ptm. J.D. Tippit)   I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View.       
    87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)   87's going north on Marsalis at R.L. Thornton.

The instruction from Murray Jackson seems clear to Tippit and Nelson. Both appear acknowledge Jackson with their position. Nelson simply went to Dealey Plaza. Jackson?s excuse that they were bleeding Oak Ciiff disproportionally at that time was bogus. Menzel (91) had claimed he was out to lunch just before the shots rang out. It was his patrol district.....one guy was deemed sufficient before the shots and yet Jackson felt suddenly two officers were needed. A bit strange.


"Armed with is thought to be a 30-30 rifle".....   

A 30-30 is a Lever action rifle designed by Winchester.... There's no way a full wooden stock, mannlicher carcano, could be mistaken for a 30-30 Winchester.

Sorry to jump off topic... but since the police dispatcher describes the suspect as someone other than Lee Oswald and the weapon that is NOT a carcano, on this tape I wanted to call attention to this fact. 

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 01:50:50 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 01:55:40 PM »
From Marsalis/RL Thornton (12.45) to South end of Houston St viaduct (12.49) is 7.9 miles (google maps).
I have been generous with the times and is likely a minute less.....
In any event.....Nelson does it in at least 120mph.....maybe 160mph! Not originally in his assigned district too (from my fading memory).
I actually checked all that and it's really about 4.5 miles from Thornton at Marsalis to 400 Elm street [Dealey Plaza] The drive could take less than 10 minutes at normal highway speed. However, In his interview-Nelson claims to have heard the shots and spoken [about two minutes later] to a patrolman who claimed to have seen the assassination. How could this be when it occurred 15 minutes before Nelson reported his location in Oak Cliff? His yarn just didn't fly.
 

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 02:30:19 PM »
I actually checked all that and it's really about 4.5 miles from Thornton at Marsalis to 400 Elm street [Dealey Plaza] The drive could take less than 10 minutes at normal highway speed. However, In his interview-Nelson claims to have heard the shots and spoken [about two minutes later] to a patrolman who claimed to have seen the assassination. How could this be when it occurred 15 minutes before Nelson reported his location in Oak Cliff? His yarn just didn't fly.
 

My error on the distance....in any event Nelson was out of assigned district at the time and although acknowledging Jackson's directive by calling his location, ignored it by continuing onto the TSBD.

Jackson?s reason for calling them into Oak Cliff was bogus.

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 02:30:19 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 04:02:46 PM »
I actually checked all that and it's really about 4.5 miles from Thornton at Marsalis to 400 Elm street [Dealey Plaza] The drive could take less than 10 minutes at normal highway speed. However, In his interview-Nelson claims to have heard the shots and spoken [about two minutes later] to a patrolman who claimed to have seen the assassination. How could this be when it occurred 15 minutes before Nelson reported his location in Oak Cliff? His yarn just didn't fly.
 

Jerry, perhaps you're looking at his from the wrong perspective.....Nelson said that he heard the shots, and talked to a cop who had witnessed the shooting....

Is it possible that he wasn't in Oakcliff at Thornton at Marsalis....  Could he have been in Dealey??

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 08:36:06 PM »
From the lead post------ Nelson's interview....
         
Quote
Nelson remembers seeing Ruby bent over, as police officers tried to subdue him and
         someone yelled, ?Get his gun!?
         ?I grabbed for his hands and didn?t find a gun,? Nelson said. ?But I managed to
          manhandle him into the basement jail house office and handcuffed him.?

Awesome! However, I fail to see Nelson's name on the arrest form. I would like to see his picture at the Oswald shooting.
Think we can find one?

PS  I made an error in linking Ruby's arrest report. Here is all I can find so far....
 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2113-001.gif
Jack Leaville, LC Graves, and Blackie Harrison are Jack Ruby's arresting officers of record.

Quote
Is it possible that he wasn't in Oakcliff at Thornton at Marsalis?
Then he lied about it. A liar anyway you slice it. R C Nelson, W R Westbrook and friends...all peas in a pod that day.
Of course I can't prove any involvement with the Tippit crime...but I am suspicious.  [/size]
   
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 11:44:26 PM by Jerry Freeman »

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 09:02:58 PM »
  although acknowledging Jackson's directive by calling his location, ignored it by continuing onto the TSBD. Jackson?s reason for calling them into Oak Cliff was bogus.
Then he disobeyed a directive and would have been subject to discipline. How would we know that he did this...because he said so? How do we know Jackson's reason?
 
 

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 09:02:58 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 09:42:50 PM »
Then he disobeyed a directive and would have been subject to discipline. How would we know that he did this...because he said so? How do we know Jackson's reason?
 

I believe Jackson?s call was inserted after the event to explain away Tippit's movement out of district.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2019, 10:21:23 AM »
I found some of my old stuff on this.......starts with Michael Griffith and Duke Lane

From Michael Griffith's review of "with Malice"

Full article here http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/the_critics/griffith/With_Malice.html "Why Tippit Was in Central Oak Cliff and Not in His Assigned Area When He Allegedly "Stopped" Oswald     

There is a severe problem with Myers' explanation for Tippit's presence in central Oak Cliff. Tippit's assigned area was miles from central Oak Cliff. Myers quotes dispatcher Murray Jackson's story that he assigned Tippit to central Oak Cliff because "we were draining the Oak Cliff area" and because he supposedly realized there wouldn't be any policeman there if anything happened there (pp. 43-44). But, this won't work: There was already a patrol car assigned there.     Tippit was gunned down in District 91. Officer Mentzel was already assigned there. John Wassell says the police tape for Channel 1 contains a transmission at about 12:33 in which Mentzel asks for permission to take a break. Wassell says Mentzel was on a lunch break from about 12:33 to 1:07. The dispatcher made no effort to contact Mentzel during this period. Wassell further says the dispatcher acknowledged without comment a check-in transmission from Mentzel at 1:07.     

One could argue that technically District 91 was "uncovered" during this time. But in the aftermath of the assassination Districts 88, 89, and 98 also appear to have been "uncovered." Also, many patrol cars appear to have been covering two districts. So why would central Oak Cliff have been singled out for such special attention? Moreover, it should be kept in mind that just moments before the belatedly discovered 12:45 instruction for Officers Tippit and Nelson to move to central Oak Cliff, the dispatcher had radioed "all squads" to proceed to Dealey Plaza: Attention all squads, report to downtown area code 3 to Elm and Houston, with caution. (CE 705, p. 8, 17 H 397) In light of the these facts, it is very hard to understand why central Oak Cliff would have been singled out for special attention. Why would TWO out-of-area patrol cars have been sent to central Oak Cliff when all squads had just been ordered to go to Dealey Plaza (i.e., Elm and Houston), and when there was already a patrol car assigned to that area? Is it sheer coincidence that Oswald "just happened" to live in central Oak Cliff?     

If nothing else, dispatcher Jackson would have known that Mentzel would be back in his patrol car soon. There was no need to send two additional patrol cars to central Oak Cliff.     Myers fails to explain why central Oak Cliff would have been singled out for special attention. Why the need for THREE patrol cars in the one area where, by cosmic coincidence, Oswald "just happened" to live, especially given the fact that there had been no disturbance of the peace in that area whatsoever, and that during this same time officers from the outermost areas were being sent to the Book Depository?     Disturbingly, nowhere in his section on why Tippit was in central Oak Cliff does Myers mention that Officer Mentzel was already in District 91. Not one solitary word. Why not? Because that would cast doubt on his explanation for Tippit's presence in central Oak Cliff?     Myers discusses a number of things that policemen and others said were broadcast over the police radio but which are not found on the existing police tapes. Interesting. This raises the possibility that the tapes have been altered or faked. Critics have long suspected that the 12:45 order sending Tippit and Nelson to central Oak Cliff was dubbed onto the tape after the fact. No such order appeared in the first Dallas police transcript of the police dispatch tapes, even though that transcript was prepared with the instruction to note all transmissions that related to the deaths of Tippit and Kennedy.     Former HSCA deputy chief counsel Gary Cornwell points out that the police tapes in question might be copies (REAL ANSWERS, p. 113). So does Carl Oglesby (THE JFK ASSASSINATION: THE FACTS AND THE THEORIES, p. 251). Says Oglesby, . . . there are indications that other police dictabelts were tampered with (in connection with Patrolman J. D. Tippit) and the NAS panel did not look into these. Third, the chain of custody of this particular piece of evidence, this particular dictabelt, leaves its authenticity open to challenge. One of the committee's scientific experts said outright, though not for attribution, that the discovery of the apparently simultaneous voice transmission from one minute after the transmission means that this dictabelt could not be the original. (THE JFK ASSASSINATION, p. 251)" So it appears that at 12.33 Mentzel in the turmiol that is happening in downtown Dallas.....just has to grab a burger and some donuts and returns half an hour later. Evoking common sense and logic 101.

From Duke Lane....... "Another coincidence is that Mentzel and Tippit were not the only patrol officers in the district at that time, compounding the question as to why Tippit needed to be assigned there. In point of fact, another officer had radioed in that he was "clear [of the car] for five [minutes]" on "East Jefferson" - which is only in Oak Cliff - less than one minute before Tippit was first contacted and ordered into the very same district (along with RC Nelson, who disregarded his orders and broadcast the fact - unchallenged - even as he was doing so). That officer was at least 10 miles from his assigned patrol area (if he was, in fact, the officer assigned to that number). Mentzel, (co)incidentally, finished his lunch and went back on patrol immediately before Tippit's shooting, and was then ordered to investigate an accident on West Davis, which he failed to find. So to summarize:

 ?WD Mentzel, assigned to districts 93 and 94, took lunch just about the time that JFK's motorcade was going through downtown Dallas; he was the only patrol officer to go on lunch at this critical time (this based on the assumption of a 30- to 45-minute lunch break that he completed at about 1:00, the time of his next broadcast, and his 12:25 broadcast that he was "clear" following having been "on traffic" and his next transmission just before 1:07). It is likewise presumed that he went to lunch prior to 12:30 since he later stated that he did not hear about the downtown shooting until he was finishing lunch, thus did not hear it on the radio;

?At 12:28, Unit 56 (WP Parker, in far SE Dallas, by the Garland and Mesquite town lines) radios in about "traffic" involving a '56 Chevy. Dispatch attempts to respond shortly thereafter, but does not get an answer, prompting the question from dispatch: "Anyone know where 56 is?" ?At 12:44, Unit 56 (Parker?) reports that he's "clear for five," and dispatch asks his location. He responds that he's at "East Jefferson" (which is only in Oak Cliff) in patrol district 94 (Mentzel's), 10 miles from his own patrol district;

?At 12:45 - just seven broadcasts from dispatch later - the dispatcher radios Tippit, who reports being at Kiest and Bonnieview, to "move into central Oak Cliff" because - according to the dispatcher's later comments - "resources were being drained from Oak Cliff" ?At 12:54, Tippit is again contacted and reports being at "Lancaster and Eighth," which coincidentally can be reached at normal speed in about eight-and-a-half minutes driving up Bonnieview (which becomes 8th) from Kiest. ?Meanwhile, Harry Olsen is out on the sidewalk in front of an "estate" he's guarding on 8th "a couple of blocks from Stemmons" (Lancaster is two blocks off of the highway) and "receives a phone call" from a friend of an "elderly aunt" of a motorcycle cop assigned to the motorcade (which aunt years later becomes a deceased man whose identity is unknown); ?Sometime between 1:00 and 1:04, dispatch asks Tippit (who is supposed to be patrolling "at large") for his location. Tippit does not respond.

?At 1:04, Mentzel finishes lunch and radios being "clear" following his lunch; ?At 1:11, Mentzel responds to a "Signal 7" (accident) at 817 W Davis (point "B" on the map), about 10 blocks (1.2 miles) from 10th & Patton (point "C"). Unit 222, VR Nolan, also responds from his location at Sylvan & Colorado (point "A") less than a mile away; ?At 1:16, Tippit's shooting is reported by TF Bowley on Channel 1. Tippit has been dead for several minutes at this time.

?Unit 56 (Parker?) does not broadcast again at any time through 2:13. Later reports indicate that the officer(s) assigned to District 56 remained in that district setting up roadblocks following Kennedy's assassination. So some reasonable questions would seem to be: ?Why was WD Mentzel the only officer at lunch while Kennedy's motorcade was travelling through Dallas? ?Why was #56 in Oak Cliff? And where did he go afterward? ?After not hearing from #56 for 16 minutes and then asking his location, why would a dispatcher not realize that he was in Oak Cliff and far from his assigned area?

?Why after hearing that #56 was in Oak Cliff would a dispatcher "realize" that resources were being "drained" from that area and assign two other officers, both from other districts farther south, into it?

?Why was Oak Cliff the only patrol district throughout the city that was assigned "additional" coverage when most other districts' officers responded to the "Signal 19" (shooting) call to "all units" to "report downtown?"

?Why did RC Nelson disregard his order to move into central Oak Cliff, and why did dispatch not say anything when Nelson told them that he was crossing the viaduct into downtown (away from Oak Cliff) and later that he was "out down here" at TSBD in blatant disregard of his orders? ?Why was dispatch concerned with Tippit's location when he was only supposed to be patrolling "at large" around central Oak Cliff? The questions lead to more, including whether the killer was aware of Tippit's being in Oak Cliff because the killer himself was a cop (or was brought there by a cop) who was listening to his own police radio, and thus could be assured that no other police cruisers would come along? Was Tippit in fact having a dalliance with someone who lived three houses from where Scoggins - who "just saw him every day" - was having lunch, and two houses away from the Davis sisters-in-law, one of whom said that he'd been shot "in front of the hedgerow between the house next door and the one he lives in," and if so, were others aware of it (as former officer Tom Tilson has claimed)? Was Tippit ordered into Oak Cliff because it was assumed that, given the chance to be "at large," he would attempt to visit his paramour? Was the killer "killing time" walking around the area waiting for Tippit to finally show up, thus explaining both why neither Scoggins nor Markham noticed him cross Patton and why he was apparently seen by Jimmy Burke (and Markham's son) walking west from Denver Street? Was Tippit in the act of pulling over in front of his paramour's house when he saw someone he recognized and acted as if he was pulling over not to visit his girlfriend, but to greet - "real friendly like" - said unexpected acquaintence? Who was the woman standing on the porch of her home that Frank Wright said had exclaimed "oh, they've shot him!" before going back inside ... perhaps said presumed paramour who may have reconciled with her estranged husband later that very same day? Was Tippit's shooting merely a personal grudge that was carried out serendipitously, the act of a desperate assassin afraid of apprehension, or perhaps a deliberate - and quite successful - attempt to divert police attention away from Dealey Plaza as "one of their own" was shot in the line of duty? Nothing, no other crime of any magnitude, has the emotional impact of a cop-killing and will evoke a massive response by other officers to the exclusion of any other duty; it would have been the most perfect diversion possible. If that's so, who planned it and ordered that Tippit be sent to his death? Is it plausible that it was serendipity that a cop - Tippit - showed up where a shooter was in the simple hope that one could be shot and draw a massive response of cops to the one area of town where a missing TSBD employee happened to live? Or did Oswald do it?"



JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The puzzling activities of Ptm R C Nelson 11/22/1963
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2019, 10:21:23 AM »


 

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