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Author Topic: Who did Brennan see on the Fifth Floor?  (Read 566 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Who did Brennan see on the Fifth Floor?
« on: February 13, 2019, 12:08:01 AM »
During his WC testimony Brennan claimed to have seen men on the fifth floor. He took up position on the SW corner of Elm and Houston about 12.24pm.

This is what his testimony reveals.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect?
Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor. There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that I noticed. There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please?
Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window.

Brennan clearly remembers seeing just two men and that he identified them that day to police as they attempted to leave the building. Brennan now marked the window that Jarman was in!     

Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one?

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which was taken shortly after this time.

 I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors. First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them. As positive identification I cannot recognize them. Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
I am going to hand you now
Mr. BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a "B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that I identified was in this window.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "B"?
Mr. BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought this was one window over.

Belin gets Brennan to correct the window from Jarman's window to the one Williams and Norman were behind.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle?
Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me on the plane of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day.
Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could not identify.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles.

Brennan was able to identify on the day of the assassination. A few days later perhaps not. He saw them on the plane coming up to appear before the WC and could then identify the two. In an effort to sort out the muddled testimony so far regarding the men on the fifth floor, the WC reconvened with them all present.

Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen.
Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later.
You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you.
Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct? The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.
Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.
Any questions?
Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now.
Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now?
Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth-floor window and you saw them again on the first floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people I could identify.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you--
Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I--
Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the--
Mr. BRENNAN. Left.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east.
Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked B?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. You are not positive?
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of this witness?
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building?
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking
down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. The one I circled or this window here.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you--
Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, employees that came down.
Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.
Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a B.
Mr. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I am in question whether it was this window or this window.
Mr. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another might have been in a window to the east?
Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BRENNAN. What I saw prior.

Brennan now seems to indicate he remembered two men on the fifth floor were Jarman and Norman. He noticed them prior to the shots. He arrived on the wall around 12.24pm and admitted he did not look back at the window once the motorcade approached Houston. If so, he had opportunity to observe people in the windows for just a few minutes before the shots, likely between 12.25 and 12.29pm. If he noticed them between 12.25 and 12.27 or so, it makes sense he did not see Williams, who would have been in transit from the 6th floor after leaving the SN.

Anther point supporting the fact that he identified Jarman and Norman is that there is footage of Williams on the steps of the TSBD after the shooting looking back towards the double doors as someone is being ushered back inside (Jarman and/or Norman?). I doubt that if Brennan identified Williams just after the shots attempting to leave the building he would be able to be left on the steps as he appears.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Who did Brennan see on the Fifth Floor?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2019, 02:20:18 AM »
So the important information that Brennan provided was that he saw just two men in the windows on the fifth floor prior to the shooting......not 3.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Who did Brennan see on the Fifth Floor?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2019, 05:09:45 PM »
So the important information that Brennan provided was that he saw just two men in the windows on the fifth floor prior to the shooting......not 3.

Yes....I believe that is what Brennan said....And thats what the Hughes film shows.   The Hughes film was taken just a few seconds before the shots were heard and there seems to be only TWO people behind the fifth floor windows (1st and 4th from the east end) .....Bonnie Ray most certainly is NOT in the position where he appears in  Tom Dillard's photo.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 05:18:21 PM by Walt Cakebread »


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