Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: When did Brennan take up position?  (Read 1453 times)

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
When did Brennan take up position?
« on: February 12, 2019, 11:29:23 PM »
Brennan was an important witness as he claimed to see a variety of events. It is important to establish with some accuracy when he took up position.

From Brennan's WC testimony.....

Brennan take up position on the wall about 12.24pm

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?
Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it.
Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?
Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.
Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to--
Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston
Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.

Seems pretty clear......leaves cafeteria at 12.18, walks for 4 minutes, watches Belknap having fit and attended by officers and ambulance for couple of minutes.

12.18+4+2=12.24pm

As confirmation the ambulance left Dealy Plaza just before 12.25pm according to the transcripts.

Therefore all of Brennan's relevant observations occur after this time.

The defence rests.....If you disagree with this analysis.....go for it.

JFK Assassination Forum

When did Brennan take up position?
« on: February 12, 2019, 11:29:23 PM »

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 5075
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 12:14:28 AM »
Interesting.  So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch.  Is that what you're getting at?

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 12:29:52 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Interesting.  So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch.  Is that what you're getting at?

Nope......but it is possible that his recollection of seeing a man come and go from the SN may have been two men. Williams going and the assassin entering. He innocently assumed it was the same man. Williams was wearing a khaki shirt. Perhaps Williams departure originally drew Brannan's eye to the 6th floor window.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 12:29:52 AM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 2822
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 09:06:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Interesting.  So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch.  Is that what you're getting at?

So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch

Would this be the 175 pound "Oswald" who was in his thirties, and who was dressed in Light colored khaki clothing?   ??


Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2019, 12:00:24 AM »
Can I take it that there is no serious rebuttal to the question posed in the topic title?

The relevant observations that Brennan provides prior to the assassination start about 12.24pm.

Hopefully we can move on from that understanding.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2019, 12:00:24 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1282
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2019, 10:37:10 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nope......but it is possible that his recollection of seeing a man come and go from the SN may have been two men. Williams going and the assassin entering. He innocently assumed it was the same man. Williams was wearing a khaki shirt.

Hello, Mr Crow!  Thumb1:

I don't think this last bit is correct. Mr Williams' shirt, as seen in the Martin & Hughes films, seems too dark to match Mr Brennan's description.

Also, I honestly doubt Mr Brennan would have conflated in his memory a black man and a white man.

Also also I struggle to believe that the sharp-eyed Mr Arnold Rowland would have mistaken young Mr Williams for an 'elderly Negro' in a plaid shirt...

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 12:04:18 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hello, Mr Crow!  Thumb1:

I don't think this last bit is correct. Mr Williams' shirt, as seen in the Martin & Hughes films, seems too dark to match Mr Brennan's description.

Also, I honestly doubt Mr Brennan would have conflated in his memory a black man and a white man.

Also also I struggle to believe that the sharp-eyed Mr Arnold Rowland would have mistaken young Mr Williams for an 'elderly Negro' in a plaid shirt...

Hello Mr Ford. Firstly I gather you have no issue with the original proposal. Brennan?s observations of the TSBD were after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor. After their arrival Williams leaves. He was in the SN, as shown by the statements of those officers first on the scene. His lunch was found there, not 2 or 3 sets of windows westward.

Williams shirt was certainly a greenish colour. Perhaps someone would post the picture. Could it not be described as khaki? Rowland also mentioned a greenish shirt for the black man in the SN......coincidence? As for Brennan mistaking the two as one person, maybe he simply saw the back of Williams leaving and the assassin entering.....assumed it to be one person.....impossible?

Rowland"s description of the man?s age could also simply be mistaken.....when did that white stuff get in Williams' hair? He had white stuff all over his clothes too......maybe it was this presentation that deceived Rowland.....impossible?

Brennan saw only two men on the fifth floor......Jarman and Norman.....that was after 12.24 and also saw movement in the SN. We know Williams was there (at least on the 6th floor) until after 12.24.

Williams must have left and the assassin enter after 12.24.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 12:04:18 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1282
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 12:24:04 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hello Mr Ford. Firstly I gather you have no issue with the original proposal. Brennan?s observations of the TSBD were after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor. After their arrival Williams leaves. He was in the SN, as shown by the statements of those officers first on the scene. His lunch was found there, not 2 or 3 sets of windows westward.

Williams shirt was certainly a greenish colour. Perhaps someone would post the picture. Could it not be described as khaki? Rowland also mentioned a greenish shirt for the black man in the SN......coincidence? As for Brennan mistaking the two as one person, maybe he simply saw the back of Williams leaving and the assassin entering.....assumed it to be one person.....impossible?

Rowland"s description of the man?s age could also simply be mistaken.....when did that white stuff get in Williams' hair? He had white stuff all over his clothes too......maybe it was this presentation that deceived Rowland.....impossible?

Brennan saw only two men on the fifth floor......Jarman and Norman.....that was after 12.24 and also saw movement in the SN. We know Williams was there (at least on the 6th floor) until after 12.24.

Williams must have left and the assassin enter after 12.24.

I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting!  Thumb1:

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 12:24:04 PM »

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 12:43:30 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting!  Thumb1:

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.

I think we can agree that Williams was unreliable and saw more than he would tell. I suspect he was up there, with his lunch. Remember that was originally widely announced as the assassin?s lunch. Williams originally tried not to be associated with the 6th floor at all but would have to change his story over time as he quickly realised he would have to account for the police likely finding his prints on the bag and bottle. Also he likely surmised that someone might have seen him up there also, I believe Rowland did. So he then did the next best thing and tried to be on the sixth floor much earlier than the 12.15 timestamp provided by Rowland for the gunmans presence.

Jarman and Norman tried to claim he went up with them to the fifth but they eventually had to recant before the WC. They provided evidence that their trip upstairs occurred after 12.22 and ties in nicely with Brennan observing those two after 12.24.


Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 2822
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 02:23:08 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting!  Thumb1:

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

This clothing description matches exactly with Howard Brennan's affidavit of 1:30 pm 11/22/63 .....  It is an accepted fact that Lee Oswald was wearing a reddish brown shirt and dark gray trousers at the TSBD that morning, and he didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing....

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 02:23:08 PM »

 

Mobile View