Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: When did Brennan take up position?  (Read 1454 times)

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1282
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2019, 10:16:06 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Just one question. Did BRW go upstairs with Jarman and Norman or not?

Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.


So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:45:32 PM by Alan Ford »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2019, 10:16:06 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 2822
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2019, 11:38:44 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.


So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?

I believe Williams.....  When he said he thought they all were going to return to the sixth floor after washing up and grabbing their lunch bags....And I believe that he was the only one who went to the sixth floor..... Did he misunderstand or did someone change that plan?

I'm left to guess about WHO changed the plan?....  Did that person know that there was evidence being planted up there on the sixth floor?   But the most important question is.... Did someone make a major mistake by not chasing Williams off that floor immediately at about 12:15 ( or whenever BRW arrived there)  Someone most certainly was assigned to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor after noon....  I suspect that the man was Jack Dougherty, but he screwed up and didn't see Williams go to the sixth floor..... so he didn't know that BRW was there silently munching his lunch at the SE corner .....   

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2019, 12:21:54 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.


So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?

Alan, my questions were to anyone not just Walt and general in nature regarding the number if liars required. Do not trust the WC testimonies too much......these were the result of the Ball/Belin trip to Dallas just before the testimonies were taken. If possible use material closer to the original event. Williams admitted the 6th floor adventure by day 2. Even then he tried to make the timing of it much earlier (and shorter). This would eventually fall apart and Jarman and Norman could no longer attempt to cover for him by saying he went up with them.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2019, 12:21:54 AM »

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2019, 12:27:34 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I believe Williams.....  When he said he thought they all were going to return to the sixth floor after washing up and grabbing their lunch bags....And I believe that he was the only one who went to the sixth floor..... Did he misunderstand or did someone change that plan?

I'm left to guess about WHO changed the plan?....  Did that person know that there was evidence being planted up there on the sixth floor?   But the most important question is.... Did someone make a major mistake by not chasing Williams off that floor immediately at about 12:15 ( or whenever BRW arrived there)  Someone most certainly was assigned to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor after noon....  I suspect that the man was Jack Dougherty, but he screwed up and didn't see Williams go to the sixth floor..... so he didn't know that BRW was there silently munching his lunch at the SE corner .....

Thing is, could the gunman in the SW window see or even know BRW was eating his chicken in the SN? Did the gunman become aware of Williams first or vice versa......tend to believe the former. Williams left his lunch behind and unfinished after he was asked to leave just minutes before the motorcade arrived.

Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2019, 02:17:23 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

This clothing description matches exactly with Howard Brennan's affidavit of 1:30 pm 11/22/63 .....  It is an accepted fact that Lee Oswald was wearing a reddish brown shirt and dark gray trousers at the TSBD that morning, and he didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing....
And Oswald changed that shirt. Fritz's notes reflects this as has been posted over the last year......
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  Hand written at bottom.
Why would Oswald lie over something as trivial as changing a shirt?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2019, 02:17:23 AM »

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 1320
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2019, 02:50:42 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And Oswald changed that shirt. Fritz's notes reflects this as has been posted over the last year......
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  Hand written at bottom.
Why would Oswald lie over something as trivial as changing a shirt?

Oswald was a liar. Liars lie. He lied about lots of "trivial" things. He did not change his shirt.  The shirt that he was seen wearing on the bus by Mrs. Bledsoe is the same shirt he had on when arrested. The bus transfer was still in the pocket of the shirt.

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 2822
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2019, 03:46:18 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Thing is, could the gunman in the SW window see or even know BRW was eating his chicken in the SN? Did the gunman become aware of Williams first or vice versa......tend to believe the former. Williams left his lunch behind and unfinished after he was asked to leave just minutes before the motorcade arrived.

Brennan said that he saw the man who was wearing the light colored clothing move around from window to window ....but was he seeing the same man??  BRW had on light colored clothing and at a glance Brennan could have mistaken BRW for the 175 pound khaki clad man.....It would have been difficult for a man to move from the SE corner window to other windows because of the barricade of boxes behind the SE corner window.....

Could the gunman in the SW window have seen BRW?..... I doubt it......If BRW was sitting on a box in the Se corner many high stacks of boxes would have been between him and the SW corner of the room.....

Did the gunman become aware??....  I believe that the man with the high powered rifle became aware of BRW and put the rifle out of sight while he confronted BRW and told him to get off the sixth floor......and keep his mouth shut about their meeting.

Incidentally....I seriously doubt that there were any shots fired from the sixth floor.....Brennan said he saw the man who was wearing the Khaki clothes AIMING a rifle He did NOT see the rifle being fired.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 04:01:15 AM by Walt Cakebread »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2019, 03:46:18 AM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 2822
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2019, 04:27:59 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Oswald was a liar. Liars lie. He lied about lots of "trivial" things. He did not change his shirt.  The shirt that he was seen wearing on the bus by Mrs. Bledsoe is the same shirt he had on when arrested. The bus transfer was still in the pocket of the shirt.

Liars may lie....But photographs don't....  Lee said that he went to his room and changed his clothes.....He said the shirt he took off was a reddish brown color with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR.   The police found a shirt matching that description in the dresser drawer in his room at 1026 N. Beckley.  Photos taken as he was dragged from the Texas theater show that he was  tawny gray shirt. 

Mrs Bledsoe said that the shirt that she saw Lee wearing had a hole in the sleeve at the elbow.....When lee was escorted through the hall at the police station he held up his handcuffed hands which stretched the sleeve tight against his elbow....There was NO HOLE in that shirt.....

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2019, 04:27:59 AM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 2822
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2019, 06:58:24 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Alan, my questions were to anyone not just Walt and general in nature regarding the number if liars required. Do not trust the WC testimonies too much......these were the result of the Ball/Belin trip to Dallas just before the testimonies were taken. If possible use material closer to the original event. Williams admitted the 6th floor adventure by day 2. Even then he tried to make the timing of it much earlier (and shorter). This would eventually fall apart and Jarman and Norman could no longer attempt to cover for him by saying he went up with them.

Colin....It's very obvious that the conspirators had selected the sixth floor as the site that they were going to use to set up the stage to frame Lee Oswald....( the spent shells were planted there and a unusual rifle with a serial number that could be traced to a rifle that Lee Oswald had ordered was found there on the sixth floor....)

Since I believe that is obvious....They most certainly would have taken precaution to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor who could refute their scenario.

IOW....They would have posted a guard to keep any employee from entering the sixth floor during the period between 12:15 and 12:30....  I believe that guard was Jack Dougherty ..... 

Dougherty was so afraid of being exposed that he couldn't think rationally when he testified before the cover up commission..... Dougherty's testimony is rambling incoherent gibberish.....

I believe he was supposed to isolate the sixth floor and keep anybody from going to the sixth floor, by taking the east elevator to the sixth floor and leaving it there ( the east elevator required an operator on board ) He was then supposed to block the stairs at the fifth floor by placing boxes of books in front of the stairway door so nobody could go beyond the fifth floor ( He may have sat down on the boxes that blocked the stairway door )   .......  Dougherty didn't know that Bonnie Ray Williams had gone to the sixth floor prior to 12:15 and was silently sitting and eating lunch at the SE corner of the sixth floor.....  So Dougherty assumed that there was nobody on the sixth floor when he left the elevator there.    Then at about 12:25 he heard Jarman and Norman bring the west elevator up to the fifth floor which was the top floor for the west elevator.....  and he saw them taking position behind the fifth floor windows to watch the parade.    Perhaps he went to the sixth floor when he heard the west elevator rising, and found Bonnie Ray Williams there....  and told him to get off the sixth floor or he would be fired .

The above scenario is a possible scenario to try to arrive at solutions to many unanswered questions...The prime question is:...   Would the conspirators have left the sixth floor unguarded  ??

     

 

Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2019, 08:30:41 PM »
 
[/quote]
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Oswald was a liar. Liars lie. He lied about lots of "trivial" things. He did not change his shirt.  The shirt that he was seen wearing on the bus by Mrs. Bledsoe is the same shirt he had on when arrested. The bus transfer was still in the pocket of the shirt.
Blah blah blah that song again...that [long discredited] song will never end.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Brennan said that he saw the man who was wearing the light colored clothing move around from window to window...
There it is. He did describe that. So if Oswald was wearing the arrest shirt, why does Brennan not describe that?


 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When did Brennan take up position?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2019, 08:30:41 PM »

 

Mobile View