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Author Topic: Did Poe Mark The Shells?  (Read 1869 times)

Offline Bill Brown

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Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« on: February 02, 2019, 08:29:18 PM »
The four shells found at the scene (two by Benavides, one by each of the Davis sisters) were designated Q-74, Q-75, Q-76 and Q-77 by the FBI.

At the Tippit scene, Officer Joe Poe was approached by Domingo Benavides. Benavides said that he saw the cop-killer discard some shells and that Benavides picked them up by placing in a Winston cigarette wrapper. Benavides brought this Winston wrapper, with two shells in it, to Poe.

When Sergeant Gerald Hill arrived at the scene, Poe offered the shells to him. Hill told Poe that he should keep them, to minimize the chain of possession. Hill told Poe to be sure to mark them and then give them members of the crime lab when they arrived.

After receiving the news that the possible suspect was inside the Texas Theater, many of the officers at the Tippit scene raced off for the theater. Poe remained behind with Detective Jim Leavelle and a handful of others.

Poe showed Leavelle the two spent shells that had been recovered at the scene and asked Leavelle if he wanted them. Leavelle told Poe to give them to Sergeant Pete Barnes, who was the crime lab officer at the scene. Leavelle declined taking possession of the shells in order to minimize the chain of possession.

Before leaving the scene, Poe turned the two shells over to crime lab Sergeant Barnes.

Now, here's where it gets interesting.

In April of 1964, the Warren Commission asked Poe and Barnes to identify the two shells they had handled at the Tippit scene.

Poe, when asked by the Warren Commission if he had marked the shells, replied "I couldn't swear to it. No sir." Poe then stated that he may have marked the shells but that his marking was hard to read. Poe identified the two shells (designated by the FBI as Q-75 and Q-77) as the two shells that he gave to Barnes.

However, Barnes identified Q-74 and Q-75 as the two shells that he received from Poe.

In June of 1964 the Warren Commission asked the FBI to interview Poe and Barnes again, in an attempt to address the differences. This time, Barnes told the FBI that the two shells given to him by Poe were Q-74 and Q-77 (as opposed to Q-74 and Q-75, as he told the Commission back in April). Poe told the FBI, after studying all four of the shells, that he couldn't find his mark on any of them and therefore, he could not positively identify any of the shells as being the same ones that he had received from Benavides.

So, we have Poe's reluctance to swear that he marked the shells. We also have a lack of Poe's identifiable mark in any of the four shells.

In 1996, Jim Leavelle told Dale Myers that Poe did not mark the shells. Leavelle said "Poe did not mark them. There was no reason to mark them. There is an evidence bag that is marked with the offense number along with your initials. The evidence goes to the crime lab where it is checked and returned to the bag and kept there until trial."

Leavelle said that Poe was afraid that he would get in trouble for failing to mark the evidence. This would explain why Poe said that he may have marked the shells but couldn't find his markings because the shells were difficult to read. Poe said that the shells had been obliterated with markings by himself, the Crime Scene Search Section, The FBI, etc.

In reality, the shells were not "obliterated" with markings at all.

Leavelle goes on to tell Myers "Sometimes, officers think they are doing the right thing and get in over their heads. But, I talked to Poe. He said that he didn't remember marking them. But, that is something we didn't do back then. I didn't do it. He didn't do it. I didn't ask him to do it. When I was out there and Poe offered the shells to me, I said no, just go ahead and put them in the envelope and send them on to the crime lab and let them work with them from there."

Crime lab Lieutenant J.C. Day confirmed that the 1963 Dallas Police Department did not have a consistent policy regarding the marking of evidence. Much of the ballistic evidence in the Kennedy assassination was marked by the Crime Scene Search Section, but some was not. There was a lack of consistency.

Shortly after Benavides handed the two shells over to Poe, crime lab Sergeant Barnes arrived at the scene and began collecting evidence. Crime lab senior officer Captain George Doughty was with him. Remember, Poe first offered the shells to Leavelle, who declined and told Poe to turn the shells over to the crime lab. To me, it is very reasonable that Poe simply did not mark the shells in light of the crime lab's presence at Tenth and Patton.

Both Doughty and Detective Dhority both selected Q-74 and Q-77 as the two shells they had handled.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:05:18 PM by Bill Brown »

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Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« on: February 02, 2019, 08:29:18 PM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 05:24:10 PM »
All four spent cartridges were traced to V510210 (CE-143). Both Cortland Cunningham and Joseph D. Nicol did not rule out that CE-602-05 (bullets recovered from Tippit's body) could have been fired from CE-143 and Nicol traced CE-603 to CE-143 to the exclusion of all other weapons. Case closed, buddy. Jack Ruby did the whole world a favor by eliminating that little commie rat  ;D 

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 06:50:38 PM »
All four spent cartridges were traced to V510210 (CE-143). Both Cortland Cunningham and Joseph D. Nicol did not rule out that CE-602-05 (bullets recovered from Tippit's body) could have been fired from CE-143 and Nicol traced CE-603 to CE-143 to the exclusion of all other weapons. Case closed, buddy. Jack Ruby did the whole world a favor by eliminating that little commie rat  ;D
No, that's not justice really. Or my definition of it. Oswald deserved a trial; just because he didn't believe in the rule of law, just because he rejected our ideas of democracy (remember he wrote that the US economic and political systems were "slave" systems), doesn't mean we should too.

In any case, I think a trial would have answered most of these questions that people have. He would have revealed himself to what he really was: an angry disaffected person. I think he'd use the trial to put the US system on trial; he wanted the communist lawyer John Abt for that very specific reason. To be sure the conspiracy crowd - elements of them - would still believe in his innocence. If he was sitting on their laps as he shot JFK they'd deny it was him. We know the type. They have an almost emotional attachment to the guy; notice they call him "Lee" and "poor old Lee"? Very odd.

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 06:50:38 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2019, 07:11:14 PM »
All four spent cartridges were traced to V510210 (CE-143). Both Cortland Cunningham and Joseph D. Nicol did not rule out that CE-602-05 (bullets recovered from Tippit's body) could have been fired from CE-143 and Nicol traced CE-603 to CE-143 to the exclusion of all other weapons. Case closed, buddy. Jack Ruby did the whole world a favor by eliminating that little commie rat  ;D

All four spent cartridges were traced to V510210 (CE-143)

That's Good....So these cartridges were fired in the revolver....... Now please verify WHEN the spent cartridges were fired in the revolver V 510210.....   Since the cartridges have not conclusively been identified as the same spent shells that Benavides picked up at the scene, how have you determined that the shells weren't fired in that revolver AFTER 11/22/63 ??    I would hasten to remind you that the tuft of fibers on the butt plate of the came from the shirt that Lee Oswald was wearing AT THE TIME OF HIS ARREST  ....but that was NOT the shirt that he was wearing at the TSBD that morning, because he'd gone to his room and changed his clothes before going to the theater.     Which leads to the undeniable conclusion that the tuft of fibers got caught on the butt plate AFTER both the rifle and the arrest shirt were in the hands of the police.   

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2019, 03:54:25 PM »
Leavelle said that Poe was afraid that he would get in trouble for failing to mark the evidence. This would explain why Poe said that he may have marked the shells but couldn't find his markings because the shells were difficult to read. Poe said that the shells had been obliterated with markings by himself, the Crime Scene Search Section, The FBI, etc.

So Poe was a teller of non truths then?  Why should anything he said be believed?

Quote
Leavelle goes on to tell Myers "Sometimes, officers think they are doing the right thing and get in over their heads. But, I talked to Poe. He said that he didn't remember marking them. But, that is something we didn't do back then. I didn't do it. He didn't do it. I didn't ask him to do it. When I was out there and Poe offered the shells to me, I said no, just go ahead and put them in the envelope and send them on to the crime lab and let them work with them from there."

Great.  Let's see the initialed envelope then and a chain of custody for that.

Quote
Crime lab Lieutenant J.C. Day confirmed that the 1963 Dallas Police Department did not a consistent policy regarding the marking of evidence. Much of the ballistic evidence in the Kennedy assassination was marked by the Crime Scene Search Section, but some was not. There was a lack of consistency.

So there's no reason then to think that Q-74 and Q-77, or Q-74 and Q-75, or Q-75 and Q-77, or the three shells that Gerald Hill described (or whatever the story-du-jour is) were the shells allegedly picked up from the scene by Benavides.

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2019, 03:54:25 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 04:22:31 PM »
So Poe was a teller of non truths then?  Why should anything he said be believed?

Great.  Let's see the initialed envelope then and a chain of custody for that.

So there's no reason then to think that Q-74 and Q-77, or Q-74 and Q-75, or Q-75 and Q-77, or the three shells that Gerald Hill described (or whatever the story-du-jour is) were the shells allegedly picked up from the scene by Benavides.

Crime lab Lieutenant J.C. Day confirmed that the 1963 Dallas Police Department did not a consistent policy regarding the marking of evidence. Much of the ballistic evidence in the Kennedy assassination was marked by the Crime Scene Search Section, but some was not. There was a lack of consistency.

So there's no reason then to think that Q-74 and Q-77, or Q-74 and Q-75, or Q-75 and Q-77, or the three shells that Gerald Hill described (or whatever the story-du-jour is) were the shells allegedly picked up from the scene by Benavides.

 Thumb1:  Ya got that right, Mr I....

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 08:41:56 PM »
All four spent cartridges were traced to V510210 (CE-143). Both Cortland Cunningham and Joseph D. Nicol did not rule out that CE-602-05 (bullets recovered from Tippit's body) could have been fired from CE-143 and Nicol traced CE-603 to CE-143 to the exclusion of all other weapons. Case closed, buddy. Jack Ruby did the whole world a favor by eliminating that little commie rat  ;D

Cite the evidence that you used to reach this conclusion.

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 08:41:56 PM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 08:52:02 PM »
So Poe was a teller of non truths then?  Why should anything he said be believed?


Mr. BALL. Did you put any markings on the hulls?
Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir.


Poe was not a teller of non truths.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 09:03:02 PM »

So there's no reason then to think that Q-74 and Q-77, or Q-74 and Q-75, or Q-75 and Q-77, or the three shells that Gerald Hill described (or whatever the story-du-jour is) were the shells allegedly picked up from the scene by Benavides.

There's no reason to think that Q-75 was a shell picked up by Benavides because that shell was picked up by Virginia Davis,

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 09:03:02 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 11:22:53 PM »
There's no reason to think that Q-75 was a shell picked up by Benavides because that shell was picked up by Virginia Davis,

There's no reason to think that Q-75 was picked up by Virginia Davis either.

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Re: Did Poe Mark The Shells?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 11:22:53 PM »