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Author Topic: The Fundamental Problem  (Read 35987 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2019, 07:48:01 PM »
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From what I understand....  https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong_1a.htm

I'm no forensic pathologist....But I find it hard to believe that a bullet path that was not straight could be probed through completely from entrance to exit.....

However....I do believe the bullet that caused the back wound ENTERED at JFK's throat...and dod not expand in the soft tissue. It started expanding when it hit the heavy back muscle and thus when the back wound was probed it could only be probed a short distance......

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2019, 07:48:01 PM »


Online Royell Storing

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2019, 08:18:49 PM »
Ain?t taking your foot off the gas with that arrogance and contempt I see.

My explanations don?t differ at all?I thought I was safe in assuming that all get the basic gist that the curb near Tague was damaged, and a fragment of said curb injured him that I wouldn?t have to spell it out.

This hypothesis is also fairly common: the FBI, WC, Tink Thompson, Flip de Mey, the Haags, Dale Myers and a bunch of others have all made it before me.

      My issue with that theory is the distance from the Kill Shot all the way over to Industrial St/Triple Underpass. I have never actually measured it off but that has got to be at least 170-180 feet apart. Better than half a football field. There are reports of Matter being blown forward and onto the hood/front of the JFK Limo, and a disputed frontal location for the Harper Fragment. But even if the Harper Fragment was blown forward it was nowhere near as far forward as the curb/Teague standing at Industrial St/The Triple Underpass. Plus, you are talking about a bullet fragment going Over & Above/Completely Clearing the South Elm St grass section, going Over & Above/Completely Clearing everyone standing on that South grass section, and then going Over & Above/Completely Clearing Main St. Think about that photo that shows Teague in the background standing at Industrial St/The Triple Underpass. He is shown on that photo to be a Long way away. Even with the curb being a smidge closer, this is an extremely long way for a bullet fragment to travel. Also, to my knowledge absolutely No Bullet Fragments were retrieved outside of the JFK Limo. This would make the alleged Teague Kill Shot Bullet Fragment to be 1 of a Kind. To me, a missed shot would be far more probable than a one of a kind Kill Shot Bullet Fragment traveling that distance.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 08:22:29 PM by Royell Storing »

Offline Dillon Rankine

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2019, 08:35:27 PM »
      My issue with that theory is the distance from the Kill Shot all the way over to Industrial St/Triple Underpass. I have never actually measured it off but that has got to be at least 170-180 feet apart. Better than half a football field. There are reports of Matter being blown forward and onto the hood/front of the JFK Limo, and a disputed frontal location for the Harper Fragment. But even if the Harper Fragment was blown forward it was nowhere near as far forward as the curb/Teague standing at Industrial St/The Triple Underpass. Plus, you are talking about a bullet fragment going Over & Above/Completely Clearing the South Elm St grass section, going Over & Above/Completely Clearing everyone standing on that South grass section, and then going Over & Above/Completely Clearing Main St. Think about that photo that shows Teague in the background standing at Industrial St/The Triple Underpass. He is shown on that photo to be a Long way away. Even with the curb being a smidge closer, this is an extremely long way for a bullet fragment to travel. Also, to my knowledge absolutely No Bullet Fragments were retrieved outside of the JFK Limo. This would make the alleged Teague Kill Shot Bullet Fragment to be 1 of a Kind. To me, a missed shot would be far more probable than a one of a kind Kill Shot Bullet Fragment traveling that distance.

I definitely get your reasoning here, but finding a stop closer where a missed bullet could?ve fragmented (the curb wasn?t hit by a hole bullet) is hard. I don?t remember the exact details, but Flip de Mey?s study of this matter (2013, Cold Case Kennedy) explained this (including mathematical details of such a fragment?s path), and further argued that the damage at the manhole (south elm) was caused by another such fragment.

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2019, 08:35:27 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2019, 08:40:19 PM »
I'm no forensic pathologist....But I find it hard to believe that a bullet path that was not straight could be probed through completely from entrance to exit.....
But not only that, Dr Humes waits until the FBI guys are gone and then proceeds to confirm what the magic bullet supposes...exit out the neck? You would think the Feds would be invited in to do some cartwheels.

 

Online Royell Storing

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2019, 09:00:34 PM »
I definitely get your reasoning here, but finding a stop closer where a missed bullet could?ve fragmented (the curb wasn?t hit by a hole bullet) is hard. I don?t remember the exact details, but Flip de Mey?s study of this matter (2013, Cold Case Kennedy) explained this (including mathematical details of such a fragment?s path), and further argued that the damage at the manhole (south elm) was caused by another such fragment.

       Again, absolutely No Bullet Fragments PERIOD were found outside the JFK Limo. NONE. Yet, we are to believe that the Only bullet fragment to exit the Limo traveled better than half a football field and then was Never Found? This is just more WC tooth fairy stuff that was concocted to fit 3 Shots being fired from 1 Location. 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 09:02:59 PM by Royell Storing »

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2019, 09:00:34 PM »


Offline Jack Trojan

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2019, 09:15:18 PM »
All I did here was talk about the general epistemologies held by each of the debate. For instance, give me an argument favouring the CT side that doesn?t follow the basic rules I outlined (I know there are some).

Your sense of certainty seems to be decidedly inflated; what makes you quite so sure that the LN theory is dead in the water, and only CT explanations?

Let's take the magic bullet as an example. Not a single LNer will address whether the bullet's trajectory from the 6th floor of the TSBD entering JFK's back at T1 and exiting at C7 was even possible. They refuse to do the simple geometry to test this. The bullet supposedly missed JFK's spine yet exited with yaw at half the initial velocity after traversing a few inches of JFK's back/neck flesh. Not sure how it could have missed bone, but if we are to believe JFK's x-ray, then it appears to have smashed thru his C7 vertebrae and exited at his throat wound.



After exiting JFK, the MB proceeded to yaw and changed direction (supposedly while it transitioned from flesh to air) and smashed thru Connally's rib and wrist bones creating at least 7 wounds then turning up on the wrong gurney without a trace of blood, flesh or bone on it looking like it had been fired into a swimming pool. CTs just want to know why this bullet isn't considered magic. The LNers just shrug it off and change the subject.

Unless JFK was leaning forward, there isn't a straight line trajectory from the SN thru JFK from the back wound to the throat wound. If you think there is, then show us with a simple re-enactment. Point 2 lasers at each other at -17 deg and sit in between them so that they align with JFK's wounds. Then post a photo that proves the MB was possible to knock the wind out of the CTs sails.

Good luck!


PS There were just too many suspicious shenanigans done by the SS/CIA/FBI/DPD that suggest LHO was NOT a lone nut. Otherwise, you have to make up endless excuses for their irrational behavior or suspicious evidence they introduced, such as..

  • The improbable magic bullet
  • Greer slowing the limo down to a near stop AFTER he heard shots fired
  • The FBI scrubbing the limo of evidence and replacing the windshield
  • The DPD's involvement in staging the crime scene, the BYPs, rush to judgment and delivery of Oswald to Ruby
  • Fritz staging the SN, handling of the evidence at the crime scene and lack of notes
  • No prints on the disassembled/reassembled rifle
  • Medical staff's description of JFK's head wounds
  • Post mortem surgery, Humes burned his notes
  • The entire autopsy: photos, x-rays, examination and description/analysis of the bullet wounds
  • Handling of JFK's body during transport and the autopsy
  • etc.

There were more than enough suspicious anomalies in the JFK assassination that in 1976 the HSCA concluded that the assassination was most likely a conspiracy. Oswald's actions made perfect sense if he was a patsy, not so much if he was a lone nut. He could still have been heavily involved but not as a lone nut assassin. The LNers are actually WC Defenders. They're conspiracy deniers that can't afford to give an inch because it only takes 1 fact to destroy their world view and they will have wasted decades shilling for the conspirators. How embarrassing!  ???

Offline Dillon Rankine

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2019, 10:10:00 PM »
Let's take the magic bullet as an example. Not a single LNer will address whether the bullet's trajectory from the 6th floor of the TSBD entering JFK's back at T1 and exiting at C7 was even possible. They refuse to do the simple geometry to test this. The bullet supposedly missed JFK's spine yet exited with yaw at half the initial velocity after traversing a few inches of JFK's back/neck flesh. Not sure how it could have missed bone, but if we are to believe JFK's x-ray, then it appears to have smashed thru his C7 vertebrae and exited at his throat wound.


The HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel made repeated reference to disruption evident on the x-rays, namely fracture and displacement of the right transverse process of T1 and possible tiny fragments of bullet or bone. The exact location of the exit wound isn?t known. Don Thomas offered the following explanation,

?What might be supposed is that crushed muscle tissues, compressed by cavitation during passage of the bullet caused fracture and displacement of the vertebral processes allowing the bullet to pass through them.?

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After exiting JFK, the MB proceeded to yaw and changed direction (supposedly while it transitioned from flesh to air)

It didn?t change direction, as JBC wasn?t sat directly in front of JDL and neither man was sitting bolt upright.

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and smashed thru Connally's rib and wrist bones creating at least 7 wounds then turning up on the wrong gurney without a trace of blood, flesh or bone


It?s disputed what stretcher it was found on, and there isn?t a ?wrong? answer, it?s JBC?s or the kid?s.   

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on it looking like it had been fired into a swimming pool. CTs just want to know why this bullet isn't considered magic. The LNers just shrug it off and change the subject.

?For every complex problem there is a solution which is simple, clear and wrong.? - H. L. Mencken.

The bullet was by no means undamaged, and the physics (equations used to determine whether it could survive) give different answers depending on data you plug in (frame of shot, impact velocity at JFK and JBC, etc) which differs from sources. Some data (particularly that found in the WC volumes and FBI tests) shows that SBT shot circa Z222-224 could produce a 399 bullet.

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Unless JFK was leaning forward, there isn't a straight line trajectory from the SN thru JFK from the back wound to the throat wound. If you think there is, then show us with a simple re-enactment. Point 2 lasers at each other at -17 deg and sit in between them so that they align with JFK's wounds. Then post a photo that proves the MB was possible to knock the wind out of the CTs sails.

Good luck!

Bullets don?t travel in straight lines. Especially after hitting a target. A problem exacerbated by rifling. Also bullet wounds in bodies are rarely paths?more often convoluted cavities of destroyed tissue (clinicians can actually fail to identify or distinguish inshoot and outshoot wounds, the determination of which is aided by associated morphological features).   

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PS There were just too many suspicious shenanigans done by the SS/CIA/FBI/DPD that suggest LHO was NOT a lone nut. Otherwise, you have to make up endless excuses for their irrational behavior or suspicious evidence they introduced, such as..

  • The improbable magic bullet

Not improbable (see above).

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  • Greer slowing the limo down to a near stop AFTER he heard shots fired

Not a near stop (see adjusted Z-film). I don?t know if Greer had been drinking the previous night, which could have affected his behaviour, but who knows why he slowed down.
 
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  • The FBI scrubbing the limo of evidence and replacing the windshield

People aren?t callous lawyers?believe or not, people can have emotional reactions after a tragedy that result in maladaptive behaviour. The CT expectation that everybody turn into Sherlock Holmes and wish to preserve everything for the precious trail is ludicrous. Why did the FBI replace the windshield? Maybe because it big cracks in it. Not good for a future driver.

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  • The DPD's involvement in staging the crime scene, the BYPs, rush to judgment and delivery of Oswald to Ruby

Staging the crime scene? Sure, the irresponsibly moved it around for the cameras but staged implies wicked intent you can?t substantiate, same with their ?delivery? of Oswald to Ruby. There?s nothing actually wrong with the backyard photos.     

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  • Medical staff's description of JFK's head wounds

Also not significant.

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  • Post mortem surgery, Humes burned his notes

I?ll give you 1 point for Humes? brining his notes. But unfortunately you lose it for believing in surgery.

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  • The entire autopsy: photos, x-rays, examination and description/analysis of the bullet wounds

More incompetent than suspicious. There should?ve been better pathologists there though. Half a point.

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There were more than enough suspicious anomalies in the JFK assassination that in 1976 the HSCA concluded that the assassination was most likely a conspiracy.

Their entire basis for that claim was the acoustics.

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Oswald's actions made perfect sense if he was a patsy, not so much if he was a lone nut. He could still have been heavily involved but not as a lone nut assassin. The LNers are actually WC Defenders. They're conspiracy deniers that can't afford to give an inch because it only takes 1 fact to destroy their world view and they will have wasted decades shilling for the conspirators. How embarrassing!  ???

Not really making sense at this point, but still. 1 1/2 points ain?t bad.[/list]

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2019, 10:10:00 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Fundamental Problem
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2019, 10:38:21 PM »
The only time a bullet moves in a straight line is when it's still in the barrel of the weapon. As soon as it exits the barrel, gravity immediately starts to drag it down. Then there's a host of environmental factors to deal with; air resistance for instance.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 11:47:12 PM by Bill Chapman »