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Author Topic: Lack Of Damage To CE-399  (Read 14035 times)

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 06:34:43 PM »
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A tangential strike using the dimension that Olivier was using would have meant that the bullet made a grazing wound not a penetrating one. Olivier did not see the wound nor even a drawing of it. He did not view the pathological data pertaining to the wound, as Larry Sturdivan did.
Perhaps Sturdivan should have studied geometry as well as ballistics. An ellipse is a symmetrical shape, so if the entrance hole was truly an ellipse not only could it be made by a non-yawing bullet striking at a tangent, it could only be made such a bullet.  A yawing or tumbling bullet will make an entrance wound that looks anything from the side of the bullet to an egg shape which could be similar to an ellipse but not an ellipse because it is not symmetrical. An elliptical entrance wound that was twice as long as it was wide would be made by a bullet oriented in the direction of travel striking at a 60 degree angle to the perpendicular from the surface at the point of impact.  Who says that such a wound would not penetrate?  The skin and soft tissue is not going to deflect it.  Bone might but if it hit at a 60 degree angle on the fifth rib, it is more likely that the bullet would push on the rib until the rib either moved out of the way or until the bullet penetrated the bone.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 06:35:45 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 06:34:43 PM »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2019, 09:33:21 PM »
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Perhaps Sturdivan should have studied geometry as well as ballistics. An ellipse is a symmetrical shape, so if the entrance hole was truly an ellipse not only could it be made by a non-yawing bullet striking at a tangent, it could only be made such a bullet.  A yawing or tumbling bullet will make an entrance wound that looks anything from the side of the bullet to an egg shape which could be similar to an ellipse but not an ellipse because it is not symmetrical. An elliptical entrance wound that was twice as long as it was wide would be made by a bullet oriented in the direction of travel striking at a 60 degree angle to the perpendicular from the surface at the point of impact.  Who says that such a wound would not penetrate?  The skin and soft tissue is not going to deflect it.  Bone might but if it hit at a 60 degree angle on the fifth rib, it is more likely that the bullet would push on the rib until the rib either moved out of the way or until the bullet penetrated the bone.

How does a bullet that is 3 cm in length create a hole that in 3 cm in length if not by entering fully sideon? Olivier himself acknowledged that the only other possible explanation for a wound being 3 cm in length is if it was a tangential wound. Meaning a glancing, non-penetrating, wound.

Sturdivan knew what he was talking about. He still does.



Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2019, 10:53:40 PM »
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How does a bullet that is 3 cm in length create a hole that in 3 cm in length if not by entering fully sideon?
First of all, the 3cm stated in his initial report was not correct.  This was corrected by Dr. Shaw who said that it was roughly elliptical and 1.5 cm in its largest diameter (4H104):

    "Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade."

Such a wound can only be created by a non-yawing 6.5mm bullet (its long axis aligned with its direction of motion) striking at an angle. If the bullet hit sideways, it would look like the bullet profile and would not tunnel into the underlying tissue with a nice round hole.

Quote
Olivier himself acknowledged that the only other possible explanation for a wound being 3 cm in length is if it was a tangential wound. Meaning a glancing, non-penetrating, wound.
Olivier never said that it was a "glancing, non-penetrating, wound".  Olivier referred to the entrance wound being caused by a "tangential" strike he was obviously aware that the bullet that made that entrance wound had penetrated Gov. Connally's chest.  He was using "tangential" in the sense of "large angle" (an angle with a "large tangent").  How can a wound at 60 degrees be "non-penetrating"?  The only way it could not penetrate would be if it was deflected.  What is going to deflect it and prevent it from just plowing through in the same direction it was travelling before it entered?

Quote
Sturdivan knew what he was talking about. He still does.
Are you saying that Dr. Olivier did not know what he was talking about?

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2019, 10:53:40 PM »

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2019, 11:06:11 PM »
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To address the "lack of damage" to CE-399...

The bullet (CE-399) leaves the muzzle of the Carcano traveling around 2100 feet per second.

The bullet, traveling roughly 1700 feet per second, strikes Kennedy in the upper back and exits the neck.

The bullet, now slowed having passed through Kennedy's neck, hits Connally in the back, causing an 8mm x 15mm elliptical wound.  This wound measurement proves that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back, proof that the bullet had passed through something else BEFORE hitting Connally in the back.

The bullet, now traveling at around half of it's original speed, strikes Connally's fifth rib, completely shattering it.  Damage to the bullet was minimal due to the fact that it was not traveling anywhere near full speed when it struck the rib.

The bullet exits Connally's chest and while traveling less than half of it's original rate of speed, enters the right wrist, striking the radius bone.  Again, damage to the bullet is minimal because of it's slow rate of speed when it struck the radius.

The bullet exits the palm side of the wrist and while traveling at less than one-fifth of it's original speed, enters the left thigh and embedding itself in the thigh muscles.  The bullet didn't go any further because it was not traveling fast enough upon striking the thigh.

The bottom line is that damage to the bullet was minimal because, when it struck rib bone and radius bone, it simply had been slowed considerably, moving too slowly to be damaged.  The bullet would have been greatly fragmented (basically destroyed), if when it struck the radius bone in Connally's right wrist, it was traveling at the same rate of speed as it was when it struck Kennedy in the upper back.

Can you cite your source for a bullet leaving the M-C at 2,100 f.p.s.?

Can you cite any evidence that shows the back wound and throat wound were *connected*?

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 01:51:01 AM »
Posted on another JFK forum

from Bill Kelly's blog (JFKCountercoup)..
Author:
Larry Haapanen holds a Ph.D from Washington State University, is an ex-Air Force Captain and retired college professor.

~snip~

"But if the transcript were edited to conceal links between the former Vice President and the murder, our conjectures seemed doomed by another exchange retained in the Newcomb transcript."

BEHN: Yes, go ahead.

KELLERMAN: I?ll have to call you back. Get a couple of men, rather the Volunteer (LBJ) boys to go over to his car and so forth. We?ll also need hers and several others. 

"The presidential limousine was a mobile murder scene. Its internal ravages ? bullet holes, blood spray, embedded bullet fragments ? would be crucial evidence in determining the source of the gunfire.

Here is Roy Kellerman (Secret Service Agent in Charge of the Dallas trip) ordering [!] his superior to have men ? LBJ?s men ? go over the car ?and so forth.?

If there was no controversy about the source of the shots, these speculations would be pointless. But so many things do conflict with the official notion of Oswald firing down from the Sixth Floor window; the Zapruder movie shows JFK thrown violently backward (toward Oswald); the shots seem to have come too fast for Oswald?s rifle; gunpowder odors are smelled in the motorcade; the Parkland doctors describe a frontal entrance wound, etc. Since there are few likely sources of shooting in Dealey Plaza which would not have ripped up the innards of  the limousine, this car was obviously hot evidence.

Yet the LBJ ?boys? who went over it that night produced neither bullet holes nor any description of blood spray pattern (the blood was washed out at Parkland by Secret Servicemen, according to hospital employees) 33

Only a skull fragment, a cracked windshield, and five bullet fragments were found. 34

It will surprise no one that two larger fragments, with parts of copper jacketing still about them, were later matched to the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and which was later traced to Oswald.

But it may surprise some that all were lying loose on the seats and floor of the car.

To put this in perspective, let us digress. Several hours before these discoveries, Secret Service Agent Richard Johnson announced another. He turned over to James J. Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service, a nearly unblemished copper-jacketed bullet given him by a hospital employee at Parkland, where it had been found on a stretcher. This became Warren Commission Exhibit 399, the famous ?magic? bullet later credited (with creating) seven wound and two broken bones. 37

Like the limousine fragments, it was matched to Oswald?s rifle. 38

Johnson apparently told no one of his bullet (no one on Air Force One seems to have heard about it) until he returned to the White House, and then both he and Chief Rowley broke the chain of evidence by not inscribing it, as standard police procedure.

This is not the place to evaluate the controversy about the ?single bullet theory? or CE399. But because LBJ?s ?boys? were sent to ?go over? the limousine, and because they found fragments of a copper-jacketed bullet, we should note that all ballistic evidence lining Oswald to the assassination passes through a single agency.

The doctors at Parkland found only lead particles in Governor Connally, 39 as did the autopsy pathologists at Bethesda in President Kennedy. 40 A bullet impression found on a curb near the shooting was also leaden. 41 In fact, no copper jacketing was found embedded anywhere. It was all found lying loose, and it was all produced by LBJ?s ?boys.?

Barely three weeks after the shooting, UPI found that the limousine had been quietly shipped to the Ford Motor Company in Dearborn, Michigan to be bullet-proofed and completely refitted. One wonders why LBJ ? who so loved the status symbols of office ? wanted to ride about in this same car with its bitter (or at least bittersweet) memories. If this was some macabre gesture of economy, it was most unfortunate since it prevented the Warren Commission from making its own examination and using the car in its filmed re-enactments. Only the bullet-scarred windshield (scarred with lead, not copper) was saved for the Commission 43 and there is both photographs and testimonial evidence to suggest it was not the same one that went to Dallas."


~snip~

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 01:51:01 AM »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 02:39:08 AM »
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How does a bullet that is 3 cm in length create a hole that in 3 cm in length if not by entering fully sideon? Olivier himself acknowledged that the only other possible explanation for a wound being 3 cm in length is if it was a tangential wound. Meaning a glancing, non-penetrating, wound.

Sturdivan knew what he was talking about. He still does.



"How does a bullet that is 3 cm in length create a hole that in 3 cm in length if not by entering fully sideon?"


It was 1.5cm. It became 3cm after Dr Shaw trimmed the jagged edges of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, directing your attention first to the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW - When Governor Connally was examined,, it was found that there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 02:41:19 AM by Gary Craig »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 03:46:54 AM »
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First of all, the 3cm stated in his initial report was not correct.  This was corrected by Dr. Shaw who said that it was roughly elliptical and 1.5 cm in its largest diameter (4H104):

    "Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade."

Such a wound can only be created by a non-yawing 6.5mm bullet (its long axis aligned with its direction of motion) striking at an angle. If the bullet hit sideways, it would look like the bullet profile and would not tunnel into the underlying tissue with a nice round hole.
Olivier never said that it was a "glancing, non-penetrating, wound".  Olivier referred to the entrance wound being caused by a "tangential" strike he was obviously aware that the bullet that made that entrance wound had penetrated Gov. Connally's chest.  He was using "tangential" in the sense of "large angle" (an angle with a "large tangent").  How can a wound at 60 degrees be "non-penetrating"?  The only way it could not penetrate would be if it was deflected.  What is going to deflect it and prevent it from just plowing through in the same direction it was travelling before it entered?
Are you saying that Dr. Olivier did not know what he was talking about?

Just to repeat the question; how does a bullet that is 3 cm in length create a hole that in 3 cm in length if not by entering fully sideon?

The wound that Olivier was asked to opine on was described to him as being 3 centimetres in its longest diameter. Whether 3 cm is accurate or not isn't relevant here. That's what Olivier was given to work with. Going with that description, he offered two possible causes for that wound. One was the bullet hitting while tilted from the perpendicular. The other was a tangential strike. That is , it was a tangential wound. An oblique, glancing wound.

If Olivier had viewed what Sturdivan did, he would have been able to offer the same concrete opinion. The wound described by Dr. Shaw had  to have been caused by a yawed bullet.


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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 03:46:54 AM »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 04:05:06 AM »
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Just to repeat the question; how does a bullet that is 3 cm in length create a hole that in 3 cm in length if not by entering fully sideon?

The wound that Olivier was asked to opine on was described to him as being 3 centimetres in its longest diameter. Whether 3 cm is accurate or not isn't relevant here. That's what Olivier was given to work with. Going with that description, he offered two possible causes for that wound. One was the bullet hitting while tilted from the perpendicular. The other was a tangential strike. That is , it was a tangential wound. An oblique, glancing wound.

If Olivier had viewed what Sturdivan did, he would have been able to offer the same concrete opinion. The wound described by Dr. Shaw had  to have been caused by a yawed bullet.



"The wound that Olivier was asked to opine on was described to him as being 3 centimetres in its longest diameter. Whether 3 cm is accurate or not isn't relevant here. That's what Olivier was given to work with."

It's not accurate.

Dr. Shaw testified the wound was 1.5cm.

It became 3cm when he trimmed the jagged edges of the wound before closing it.

Any conclusions reached using a 3cm measurement for the wound in JBC's back are wrong.

"If Olivier had viewed what Sturdivan did, he would have been able to offer the same concrete opinion. The wound described by Dr. Shaw had  to have been caused by a yawed bullet."

This folks is called WC apologist logic. I'm guessing Mr Nickerson cut his teeth at the Flat Earth Society.

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 04:05:06 AM »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2019, 04:08:13 AM »
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"The wound that Olivier was asked to opine on was described to him as being 3 centimetres in its longest diameter. Whether 3 cm is accurate or not isn't relevant here. That's what Olivier was given to work with."

It's not accurate.

Dr. Shaw testified the wound was 1.5cm.

It became 3cm when he trimmed the jagged edges of the wound before closing it.

Any conclusions reached using a 3cm measurement for the wound in JBC's back are wrong.

"If Olivier had viewed what Sturdivan did, he would have been able to offer the same concrete opinion. The wound described by Dr. Shaw had  to have been caused by a yawed bullet."

This folks is called WC apologist logic. I'm guessing Mr Nickerson cut his teeth at the Flat Earth Society.

I'm not currently arguing here that the wound was actually 3 cm long. I'm merely pointing out that Olivier was using that description of it when opining on it. Quit being so dense.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2019, 04:10:26 AM »
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Any conclusions reached using a 3cm measurement for the wound in JBC's back are wrong.

So, Andrew was wrong to use Olivier in the way he did?  OK.   Thumb1:

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2019, 04:10:26 AM »

 

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