Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Lack Of Damage To CE-399  (Read 15024 times)

Offline Bill Brown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« on: January 20, 2019, 02:53:59 AM »
To address the "lack of damage" to CE-399...

The bullet (CE-399) leaves the muzzle of the Carcano traveling around 2100 feet per second.

The bullet, traveling roughly 1700 feet per second, strikes Kennedy in the upper back and exits the neck.

The bullet, now slowed having passed through Kennedy's neck, hits Connally in the back, causing an 8mm x 15mm elliptical wound.  This wound measurement proves that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back, proof that the bullet had passed through something else BEFORE hitting Connally in the back.

The bullet, now traveling at around half of it's original speed, strikes Connally's fifth rib, completely shattering it.  Damage to the bullet was minimal due to the fact that it was not traveling anywhere near full speed when it struck the rib.

The bullet exits Connally's chest and while traveling less than half of it's original rate of speed, enters the right wrist, striking the radius bone.  Again, damage to the bullet is minimal because of it's slow rate of speed when it struck the radius.

The bullet exits the palm side of the wrist and while traveling at less than one-fifth of it's original speed, enters the left thigh and embedding itself in the thigh muscles.  The bullet didn't go any further because it was not traveling fast enough upon striking the thigh.

The bottom line is that damage to the bullet was minimal because, when it struck rib bone and radius bone, it simply had been slowed considerably, moving too slowly to be damaged.  The bullet would have been greatly fragmented (basically destroyed), if when it struck the radius bone in Connally's right wrist, it was traveling at the same rate of speed as it was when it struck Kennedy in the upper back.

JFK Assassination Forum

Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« on: January 20, 2019, 02:53:59 AM »

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****

  • This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!
  • Posts: 1320
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 03:29:22 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
To address the "lack of damage" to CE-399...

The bullet (CE-399) leaves the muzzle of the Carcano traveling around 2100 feet per second.

The bullet, traveling roughly 1700 feet per second, strikes Kennedy in the upper back and exits the neck.

The bullet, now slowed having passed through Kennedy's neck, hits Connally in the back, causing an 8mm x 15mm elliptical wound.  This wound measurement proves that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back, proof that the bullet had passed through something else BEFORE hitting Connally in the back.

The bullet, now traveling at around half of it's original speed, strikes Connally's fifth rib, completely shattering it.  Damage to the bullet was minimal due to the fact that it was not traveling anywhere near full speed when it struck the rib.

The bullet exits Connally's chest and while traveling less than half of it's original rate of speed, enters the right wrist, striking the radius bone.  Again, damage to the bullet is minimal because of it's slow rate of speed when it struck the radius.

The bullet exits the palm side of the wrist and while traveling at less than one-fifth of it's original speed, enters the left thigh and embedding itself in the thigh muscles.  The bullet didn't go any further because it was not traveling fast enough upon striking the thigh.

The bottom line is that damage to the bullet was minimal because, when it struck rib bone and radius bone, it simply had been slowed considerably, moving too slowly to be damaged.  The bullet would have been greatly fragmented (basically destroyed), if when it struck the radius bone in Connally's right wrist, it was traveling at the same rate of speed as it was when it struck Kennedy in the upper back.

A nice summation of it Bill. I've read though that the bullet was traveling a bit faster than half muzzle velocity when it struck Connally's rib. I think that Sturdivan put it at about 1400 f/s.

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 496
    • SPMLaw
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 07:01:00 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
To address the "lack of damage" to CE-399...

The bullet (CE-399) leaves the muzzle of the Carcano traveling around 2100 feet per second.

The bullet, traveling roughly 1700 feet per second, strikes Kennedy in the upper back and exits the neck.
What is your source for that? According to Dr. Olivier (5H75) the muzzle velocity was 2,160 fps and the average speed on entry of the back was 1,904 fps (5H77).

Quote
The bullet, now slowed having passed through Kennedy's neck, hits Connally in the back, causing an 8mm x 15mm elliptical wound.  This wound measurement proves that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back, proof that the bullet had passed through something else BEFORE hitting Connally in the back.
Not according to Dr. Olivier. He said (5H84) that the entrance wound on Gov. Connally's back was consistent with a non-yawing/tumbling bullet entring on a tangent and could not say that it was less probable than being caused by a yawing bullet.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 07:01:00 PM »

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****

  • This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!
  • Posts: 1320
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 07:41:06 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Not according to Dr. Olivier. He said (5H84) that the entrance wound on Gov. Connally's back was consistent with a non-yawing/tumbling bullet entring on a tangent and could not say that it was less probable than being caused by a yawing bullet.
\

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Olivier, based on the descriptions of the wound on the Governor's back, what in your opinion was the characteristic of the bullet at the time it struck the Governor's back with respect to the course of its flight?
Dr. OLIVIER. Let's say from the size of the wound as described by the surgeon, it could have been tipped somewhat when it struck because that is a fairly large wound. Another thing that could have done it is the angle at which it hit. On the goat some of the wounds were larger than others. On the goat material some of the wounds were larger than others because of the angle at which it hit this material. The same thing could happen on the Governor's back.
Mr. SPECTER. And how was that wound described with respect to its size?
Dr. OLIVIER. The Governor's wound?
Mr. SPECTER. On the Governor's back?
Dr. OLIVIER. About 3 centimeters at its largest dimension.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you have any view as to which factor was more probable, as to whether it was a tangential strike on the Governor's back, or whether there was yaw in the bullet at the time it struck the Governor's back?
Dr. OLIVIER. I couldn't as far as being tangential. I couldn't answer that, not knowing the position of the Governor. But it could have been caused by a bullet yawing. I mean it would have made a larger wound, as that was.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other cause which could account for that type of a large wound on the Governor's back other than with the bullet yawing?
Dr. OLIVIER. With this particular bullet those would be the two probable causes of this wound of this size.

                                                                                          <a href="You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login">84</a>

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-


You were saying?

Olivier offered that the longitudinal dimension could possibly be explained by a tangential strike if the strike was at a slight angle on his back so that it came in cutting the skin but refused to commit himself on it because he hadn't actually seen the wound.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 07:52:25 PM by Tim Nickerson »

Offline Jack Trojan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Thomas Arthur Vallee
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 08:20:14 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
To address the "lack of damage" to CE-399...

The bullet (CE-399) leaves the muzzle of the Carcano traveling around 2100 feet per second.

The bullet, traveling roughly 1700 feet per second, strikes Kennedy in the upper back and exits the neck.

The bullet, now slowed having passed through Kennedy's neck, hits Connally in the back, causing an 8mm x 15mm elliptical wound.  This wound measurement proves that the bullet was tumbling when it hit Connally's back, proof that the bullet had passed through something else BEFORE hitting Connally in the back.

The bullet, now traveling at around half of it's original speed, strikes Connally's fifth rib, completely shattering it.  Damage to the bullet was minimal due to the fact that it was not traveling anywhere near full speed when it struck the rib.

The bullet exits Connally's chest and while traveling less than half of it's original rate of speed, enters the right wrist, striking the radius bone.  Again, damage to the bullet is minimal because of it's slow rate of speed when it struck the radius.

The bullet exits the palm side of the wrist and while traveling at less than one-fifth of it's original speed, enters the left thigh and embedding itself in the thigh muscles.  The bullet didn't go any further because it was not traveling fast enough upon striking the thigh.

The bottom line is that damage to the bullet was minimal because, when it struck rib bone and radius bone, it simply had been slowed considerably, moving too slowly to be damaged.  The bullet would have been greatly fragmented (basically destroyed), if when it struck the radius bone in Connally's right wrist, it was traveling at the same rate of speed as it was when it struck Kennedy in the upper back.

You can't speculate with data you don't have, which includes any aspect of the ballistics such as speed and trajectory especially when you have no connection of CE-399 to any of the 3 hulls found in the SN.  You are dealing with the unlikelihood that CE-399 could strike several bones and sustain minimal damage, while the head shot bullet disintegrated into the mystic.

So is the claim that the MB entered JFK's back 2 inches right of spine at the T1 vertebrae and exited dead center of his throat at the C6/C7 vertebrae and that it missed his spine altogether? IOW was there a straight "boneless" path thru JFK that would cause the bullet to "slow down to half speed" and yaw before striking Connally?

Does the "alleged" autopsy x-ray suggest this?



Does the geometry suggest this?



As far as ballistics is concerned, our only option is to test the official account and see if it holds up. It is incumbent on any believer in the SBT to convince themselves that the bullet wasn't magic with a simple re-enactment. My "Laser Challenge" is cheap and easy. Point 2 lasers at each other (-17 degree angle) as depicted below and take a seat between them so that the lower laser strikes your throat, same as JFK. Where the high laser strikes your back represents the path that the MB must have taken to travel thru JFK without deflection.



When you replicate the MB trajectory as seen on the x-ray and autopsy photos, then post a photo showing your body orientation that made it work.  So far, no show for the laser challenge. And you just know that if anyone could make it work that has tried would post it faster than a speeding MB.  But they will have at least analysed the data objectively and drawn informed conclusions.

PS. Feel free to use lasers to do a re-enactment with Connally in the mix. :)

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 08:20:14 PM »

Online Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1533
  • I am not a "CT"
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2019, 09:09:07 PM »
Where is the proof that CE-399 was fired at the motorcade that day?

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 496
    • SPMLaw
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2019, 09:11:05 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You were saying?

Olivier offered that the longitudinal dimension could possibly be explained by a tangential strike if the strike was at a slight angle on his back so that it came in cutting the skin but refused to commit himself on it because he hadn't actually seen the wound.
So, as I was saying, Dr. Olivier said that the wound could be caused by a tangential strike or a yawing bullet and he could not say which was more probable, just that "With this particular bullet those would be the two probable causes of this wound of this size".In other words he did not agree with your assertion the the wound measurement proved that it was made by a tumbling/yawing bullet.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 09:15:01 PM by Andrew Mason »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2019, 09:11:05 PM »

Offline Oscar Navarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****

  • This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!
  • Posts: 463
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 05:13:19 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So, as I was saying, Dr. Olivier said that the wound could be caused by a tangential strike or a yawing bullet and he could not say which was more probable, just that "With this particular bullet those would be the two probable causes of this wound of this size".In other words he did not agree with your assertion the the wound measurement proved that it was made by a tumbling/yawing bullet.

If the wound was caused by a tangential strike then it had to have been a pristine bullet. At the angle it entered JBC back and exited from just below his right nipple from where would the shot have originated from?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 05:13:19 PM »

Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1062
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 05:27:48 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If the wound was caused by a tangential strike then it had to have been a pristine bullet. At the angle it entered JBC back and exited from just below his right nipple from where would the shot have originated from?

    "A" pristine bullet takes in a lot of territory. Not to mention it distances itself from "THE" pristine bullet.

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****

  • This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!
  • Posts: 1320
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 05:42:58 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So, as I was saying, Dr. Olivier said that the wound could be caused by a tangential strike or a yawing bullet and he could not say which was more probable, just that "With this particular bullet those would be the two probable causes of this wound of this size".In other words he did not agree with your assertion the the wound measurement proved that it was made by a tumbling/yawing bullet.

A tangential strike using the dimension that Olivier was using would have meant that the bullet made a grazing wound not a penetrating one. Olivier did not see the wound nor even a drawing of it. He did not view the pathological data pertaining to the wound, as Larry Sturdivan did.

Mr. STURDIVAN - As I recall from reviewing the same material that the forensic pathologists reviewed, the entry hole had been excised and destroyed by the surgeons at Parkland Memorial, but that a subsequent description of that hole was given which, as I recall, was elliptical, and in attempting to make a drawing of the shape of that hole, the surgeon drew an ellipse on a piece of paper. The ellipse that was drawn measured 8 millimeters by 15 millimeters. However, I am not sure that indicated the size of the hole so much as the elliptical shape.
Mr. FITHIAN - So, is it your judgment, then, that the bullet had to have struck something else and was tumbling when it hit Governor Connally?
Mr. STURDIVAN - If it indeed had the shape that was described, then it would have to have been yawed and having been yawed, it would require that it struck something else before it struck the Governor.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 05:42:58 PM »

 

Mobile View