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Author Topic: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?  (Read 4105 times)

Offline Thomas Graves

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Where, oh, where did Steve M. Galbraith go?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy   :'(
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 08:48:38 PM by Thomas Graves »

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Offline Walt Cakebread

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Why did false defector Yuri Nosenko say in January, 1964, that the KGB hadn't even interviewed Oswald during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR?

(Fwiw, my hero Tennent H. Bagley didn't believe Oswald killed JFK at the direction of the KGB, but did think that, based on Nosenko's denials, one of the reasons KGB sent Nosenko to the U.S. was to prevent CIA/FBI from discovering some relationship Oswald had had with KGB before he defected to the USSR.)

Another possibility is that Nosenko told J. Edgar "Egg On Face" Hoover exactly what he wanted to hear about Oswald so that Hoover would automatically believe what he said about other subject matters, e.g., "Neither the CIA nor the FBI have any KGB moles."

(LOL)

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

one of the reasons KGB sent Nosenko to the U.S. was to prevent CIA/FBI from discovering some relationship Oswald had had with KGB before he defected to the USSR.)

I don't know how Nosenko defecting to the US could have kept the FBI or anybody from learning that Lee Oswald had been recruited by the KGB while he was serving on a top secret U-2 base in Japan.  How does that work?

There's no doubt in my mind that Lee was recruited by the KGB while he was serving as a Marine in Japan....and there's also no doubt in mind that he had the blessing of ONI and the State Department, who helped him learn to understand and speak Russian.  ( he wouldn't have been much use to the US if he couldn't Speak and understand Russian. )   

The animosity between Hoover and other intelligence agencies kept him in the dark about Lee Oswald...He thought that Lee was a turn coat traitor and a commie....

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 10:26:15 PM »
one of the reasons KGB sent Nosenko to the U.S. was to prevent CIA/FBI from discovering some relationship Oswald had had with KGB before he defected to the USSR.)

I don't know how Nosenko defecting to the US could have kept the FBI or anybody from learning that Lee Oswald had been recruited by the KGB while he was serving on a top secret U-2 base in Japan.  How does that work?

There's no doubt in my mind that Lee was recruited by the KGB while he was serving as a Marine in Japan....and there's also no doubt in mind that he had the blessing of ONI and the State Department, who helped him learn to understand and speak Russian.  ( he wouldn't have been much use to the US if he couldn't Speak and understand Russian. )   

The animosity between Hoover and other intelligence agencies kept him in the dark about Lee Oswald...He thought that Lee was a turn coat traitor and a commie....

Dear Walt,

Nosenko claimed that KGB thought Oswald so "crazy" and "dangerous" looking that it didn't even interview him during the 2.5 years he lived in the USSR, but if Oswald's "Historic Diary" is to be believed, he was interviewed one time (by a KGB officer working in another agency as "cover"), and if we add Nechiporenko's narrative to the mix, Oswald was interviewed again by KGB, making a total of two such sit-downs. Now, why would Nosenko try to hide that? Was he afraid Johnson might nuke Moscow some two months after the assassination?  LOL

Regardless, you might find this article interesting.
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/jul/10/cia-nosenko-logic/

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 10:57:14 PM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 10:26:15 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 11:00:24 PM »
Dear Walt,

Nosenko claimed that KGB thought Oswald so "crazy" and "dangerous" looking that it didn't even interview him during the 2.5 years he lived in the USSR, but if Oswald's "Historic Diary" is to be believed, he was interviewed one time (by a KGB officer working in another agency as "cover"), and if we add Nechiporenko's narrative to the mix, Oswald was interviewed again by KGB, making a total of two such sit-downs.

Regardless, you might find this article interesting.
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/jul/10/cia-nosenko-logic/


-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

The KGB could well have " interviewed " Lee ...After all they had recruited him in Japan , and He would have pretended to be giving them valuable information which in reality was authentic secret information,  like FOF (friend or foe) aircraft identification codes but in fact were changed frequently.  The Russian's may have thought that Lee could be useful to teach Americanese to the young Russian and Cuban espionage agents in training at the foreign language school in Minsk, so they didn't care if they were being given dated secrets....   

I doubt that the KGB took no interest in Lee when he was in Russia  ( or after he returned to the US) ....They probably knew that Lee was a US agent but they were benefiting more than they were losing by allowing Lee to live in Minsk where he had contact with their agents in training who innocuously asked Lee questions like " Hey Alik. On an American record I heard the words "Feeling Groovy"  ...What's that mean?....

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 11:07:48 PM »
The KGB could well have " interviewed " Lee ...After all they had recruited him in Japan , and He would have pretended to be giving them valuable information which in reality was authentic secret information,  like FOF (friend or foe) aircraft identification codes but in fact were changed frequently.  The Russian's may have thought that Lee could be useful to teach Americanese to the young Russian and Cuban espionage agents in training at the foreign language school in Minsk, so they didn't care if they were being given dated secrets....   

I doubt that the KGB took no interest in Lee when he was in Russia  ( or after he returned to the US) ....They probably knew that Lee was a US agent but they were benefiting more than they were losing by allowing Lee to live in Minsk where he had contact with their agents in training who innocuously asked Lee questions like " Hey Alik. On an American record I heard the words "Feeling Groovy"  ...What's that mean?....

Dear Walt,
Just curious -- Do you believe Nosenko was a true defector?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)


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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 11:07:48 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 11:39:10 PM »
Dear Walt,
Just curious -- Do you believe Nosenko was a true defector?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Yes, I believe Nosenko was a true defector....

And I'm well aware that there were men with far more information than I who argued both pro and con....Some were convinced that he was a Russsia agent while others thought he was a true defector....He was given a false identity and a good retirement pension....

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2019, 01:08:36 AM »
Yes, I believe Nosenko was a true defector....

And I'm well aware that there were men with far more information than I who argued both pro and con....Some were convinced that he was a Russsia agent while others thought he was a true defector....He was given a false identity and a good retirement pension....

Dear Walt,

Have you read the five-page section in Bagley's Ghosts of the Spy Wars called "The McCoy Intervention"?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  I'll post some of it here:

The Soviet Block R&R officer who started the process [of "clearing" Nosenko and setting him free], Leonard McCoy, was later made deputy chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff (under a new CI Staff chief, previously unconnected with anti-Soviet operations, who had replaced James Angleton). There, he continued fiercely to defend Nosenko's bona fides [footnote 5 -- See, for example, Spy Wars pp. 218?219 and its Appendix A with its endnote 3. Also, Leonard McCoy, "Yuri Nosenko, CIA," CIRA Newletter, Vol. XII, No. 3, Fall 1983] and, in the guise of cleansing unnecessary old files, destroyed all the CI Staff's existing file material that (independent of SB Division's own findings) cast doubt on Nosenko's good faith. [footnote 6 -- As testified by CI Staff operations chief Newton S. ("Scotty") Miler in a handwritten memorandum which is in the files of T. H. Bagley]. Not until forty-five years later was McCoy's appeal declassified and released by the National Archives (NARA) on 12 March 2012 under the JFK Act "with no objection from CIA.?"

McCoy opened, as we can now see, with his own finding and with a plea: "After examining the evidence of Nosenko's bona fides in the notebook," he wrote, "I am convinced that Nosenko is a bona fide defector. I believe that the case against him has arisen and persisted because the facts have been misconstrued, ignored, or interpreted without sufficient consideration of his psychological failings." The evidence, he said, is that Nosenko is "not a plant and not fabricating anything at all, except what is required by his disturbed personality." He recommended "that we appoint a new judge and jury for the Nosenko case consisting of persons not involved in the case so far" and proposed six candidates.

According to McCoy, it was not only Nosenko's psychology that should determine his bona fides, but also his reporting. "The ultimate conclusions must be based on his production," McCoy asserted, specifically claiming to be the only person qualified to evaluate that production. Certain of Nosenko's reports were important and fresh, he stated, and could not be considered KGB "throwaway?" or deception, as the notebook described them.

In reality, however, the value of Nosenko's intelligence reports had not been a major factor in the Division's finding. It had judged him a KGB plant on the basis of the circumstances of the case (of the sort listed in the "40 Questions" of the Appendix). McCoy did not explain or even mention a single one of these circumstances in his paper, so his arguments were irrelevant to the matter he pretended to deal with.

His was not a professional assessment of a complex counterintelligence situation but, instead, an emotional plea.

[It gets even better, Walt. Why don't  you read it?]
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 09:41:53 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: Why Did False Defector Nosenko Say KGB Had No Contact With Oswald In USSR?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2019, 01:08:36 AM »