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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 69580 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #432 on: February 26, 2019, 12:51:20 PM »
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According to Williams first day statement, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, just after he arrived on the 5th floor they saw the President's car come around the corner of Houston and Main. "Just after" sounds pretty consistent with the timing of Jarman and Norman arriving about 12.24 to me. Then again I have no need to move these events to an earlier time. Neither did Williams on the day of the assassination.

Colin....I'm no at all convinced that BRW was on the sixth floor after 12:20.....   I believe he could have left the sixth floor at about 12:20 and was on the fifth floor when Jarman and Norman started up to the fifth on the elevator.    Since he had encountered "someone" on the sixth floor who told him to leave he didn't want to meet another "someone" who was coming up on the elevator ....so he hid until he could see who had came up on the elevator.  When he learned that it was Norman and Jarman he joined them at the window.....


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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #432 on: February 26, 2019, 12:51:20 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #433 on: February 26, 2019, 01:20:19 PM »
Colin....I'm no at all convinced that BRW was on the sixth floor after 12:20.....   I believe he could have left the sixth floor at about 12:20 and was on the fifth floor when Jarman and Norman started up to the fifth on the elevator.    Since he had encountered "someone" on the sixth floor who told him to leave he didn't want to meet another "someone" who was coming up on the elevator ....so he hid until he could see who had came up on the elevator.  When he learned that it was Norman and Jarman he joined them at the window.....

Walt, you may be right. What we do know is that Williams was on the 6th floor after 12.15. He left his unfinished lunch in the SN. He was with the others in the Dillard photo. Brennan began observing the TSBD after 12.25. Brennan only "identified" two men on the fifth floor....most obvious is that these were Jarman and Norman and that Williams had not yet joined them at the windows. Rowland observed the TSBD between 12.15 and about 12.25. He saw the gunman at 12.15 in the SW window. He saw a black man (obviously Williams) in the SN also over that period.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #434 on: February 26, 2019, 03:48:01 PM »
Walt, you may be right. What we do know is that Williams was on the 6th floor after 12.15. He left his unfinished lunch in the SN. He was with the others in the Dillard photo. Brennan began observing the TSBD after 12.25. Brennan only "identified" two men on the fifth floor....most obvious is that these were Jarman and Norman and that Williams had not yet joined them at the windows. Rowland observed the TSBD between 12.15 and about 12.25. He saw the gunman at 12.15 in the SW window. He saw a black man (obviously Williams) in the SN also over that period.

I'm try to recall if there are any photos that show the SE corner windows that were taken at about 12: 26 .....  I believe that James Powell snapped a photo at about that time...And the Bronson and Hughes films show the windows at about that time.... Do you know of any other photos?

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #434 on: February 26, 2019, 03:48:01 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #435 on: February 26, 2019, 04:23:52 PM »
I've always had doubts about Reid's account and the notion that Oswald would go out the front door.  She didn't know him at the time.  She described him as being dressed only in a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely.  She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.  I'm always amazed at the willingness of witnesses to re-enter a building from which they just thought shots had been fired at the president.  You think they might have some greater concern for their own safety.  At the end of the day, I take her story with a grain of salt.  Maybe she saw him, maybe not.  It would have been fairly ballsy for Oswald to head out the front door.  That seems unlikely to me unless he felt it was his only option.  I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things though.  We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #436 on: February 26, 2019, 05:48:32 PM »
I've always had doubts about Reid's account and the notion that Oswald would go out the front door.  She didn't know him at the time.  She described him as being dressed only in a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely.  She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.  I'm always amazed at the willingness of witnesses to re-enter a building from which they just thought shots had been fired at the president.  You think they might have some greater concern for their own safety.  At the end of the day, I take her story with a grain of salt.  Maybe she saw him, maybe not.  It would have been fairly ballsy for Oswald to head out the front door.  That seems unlikely to me unless he felt it was his only option.  I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things though.  We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

He must have been on an adrenalin 'high' after having just achieved his life's ambition of being a somebody; add in that he likely didn't expect to emerge alive---yet was handed a free pass--- he must have felt (for those first few moments post shots) that he could achieve anything, as opposed to a lifetime of failure. That alone might have carried him out the front door.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 05:57:51 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #436 on: February 26, 2019, 05:48:32 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #437 on: February 26, 2019, 06:47:49 PM »
I've always had doubts about Reid's account and the notion that Oswald would go out the front door.  She didn't know him at the time.  She described him as being dressed only in a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely.  She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.  I'm always amazed at the willingness of witnesses to re-enter a building from which they just thought shots had been fired at the president.  You think they might have some greater concern for their own safety.  At the end of the day, I take her story with a grain of salt.  Maybe she saw him, maybe not.  It would have been fairly ballsy for Oswald to head out the front door.  That seems unlikely to me unless he felt it was his only option.  I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things though.  We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.

Nice raw and completely unfounded speculation  Thumb1:   

From "She may have talked to others" to "She had clearly talked to others" in two sentences. Simply amazing....


We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

Really? And how exactly do we know that?

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #438 on: February 26, 2019, 08:31:40 PM »
She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.

Nice raw and completely unfounded speculation  Thumb1:   

From "She may have talked to others" to "She had clearly talked to others" in two sentences. Simply amazing....


We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

Really? And how exactly do we know that?

In her affidavit, Pauline Sanders confirms that Reid mentioned Oswald's lunchroom encounter with Truly which she attributed to them "evidently lunching."  In Reid's understanding of events as recounted to Sanders, Truly and Oswald were having lunch when a policeman put a gun in Oswald's stomach and Truly vouches for him as an employee.  Obviously, a scrambled rendition of facts.  Reid was not present during the lunchroom encounter.  So how would she know about this lunchroom encounter unless she was told or overheard it from others in the aftermath of the assassination?  Don't you think the TSBD employees discussed among themselves what they had seen that day?  As a result, she knows from others that Oswald was in the lunchroom in the vicinity of her workstation after the assassination.  She may or may not have seen someone in a white t-shirt and claims it was Oswald - a person who she barely knew.   There is doubt as to whether this encounter took place and, if so, whether it was Oswald or not.  In the aftermath of historical events, some people intentionally or unintentionally falsely want to put themselves into the events.  It seems unlikely that Oswald was wearing only a white t-shirt since that is not how he was described in the lunchroom encounter moments earlier.  But believe anything you want.  It doesn't matter much whether she saw him or not.


Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to REID, OSWALD then went to the main office and REID, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told OSWALD that the President had been shot. According to SANDERS, Mrs. REID claimed that OSWALD just mumbled something and left the office. She said Reid did not mention how OSWALD left the office or for that matter if she knew how he might have left the building. SANDERS advised that the stairwell would probably have been the easiest way to leave without being too noticeable since the stairwell is in need of repairs and employees had been instructed not to use the stairwell.


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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #438 on: February 26, 2019, 08:31:40 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #439 on: February 26, 2019, 09:55:43 PM »
I was Under the impression that Harry Weatherford was a plainclothes officer....I don't believe he wore a uniform like the man climbing into the window....
The 'climber' looks like a uniformed patrol officer to me. It looks like he has a cops utility belt on. In that video clip it looks like a patrolman's white hat laying to the right of him on the deck. That does not look like a rifle to me propped up against the wall to the right of the 'hat'. It is too short and thin [comparing it to the hat] It also looks bent.
If it wasn't posted..this is the Weatherford document--    https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=520
Weatherford claimed that he went  '' upstairs to the first floor''  ? "And jumped out the first window"...."Climbed back in and searched the first floor". Perhaps he thought the ground floor was the ground floor? There is no basement. Or the second floor was the first floor or something like that. [GOOFY]  "Other officers were already searching the first floor...so then went up to the top floor" but doesn't say how he went up to the top floor. The cops just couldn't seem to get their story straight   ::)