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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 69519 times)

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #416 on: February 19, 2019, 02:55:38 PM »
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Can you prove that Mrs Reid saw Lee Oswald after the shots were heard?


You mean besides her testifying that she spoke with O. V. Campbell about the location of the shots she saw Oswald walking east, with a full coke bottle in hand (corroborated by LHO himself), in the second floor office about 2 minutes AFTER she heard the shots? BTW, it's heard and seen.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #416 on: February 19, 2019, 02:55:38 PM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #417 on: February 19, 2019, 03:38:09 PM »

If he can, I sure would like to see his time line for how Oswald gets out the front door by not later than 3 minutes posts shots, as per Office Barnett having secured the front doors:

Mr. LIEBELER - How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. BARNETT - It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER - From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you let anybody out of the building after you got there?
Mr. BARNETT - No, sir; until they were authorized.

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think it was as quickly as 2 1/2 minutes from the time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? Do you think it was that quick?
Mr. BARNETT - I believe it was 2 1/2 minute probably from the time I ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes. Then it took me 20 or 30 seconds more before I got to the front there.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door?
Mr. BARNETT - Three minutes at the most.

Oswald entering the 2nd floor office REAR door when Mrs Reid and Mr Belins stopwatch renactiment of 2 min post shots, would required Oswald to walk across about 60 ft length of office, then a 30 ft length going past the front counter area, and if at a "slow" place as indicated by Mrs Reids observation of Oswald walking slowly, then 3ft per sec has Oswald not even leaving the front door of the office until 2 min 25 sec at best, AND ONLY IN HIS T SHIRT!!

So how could Oswald have gone BACK to the 2nd floor lunchroom, which is treking another 100 ft to return by outer hallway, get his brown shirt then at least ANOTHER 120 ft and one or the other staircases of 18 steps and get out the front door by 2 min 55 sec?

IMPOSSIBLE!!

But there IS a West side entrance to the TSBD thru which William Shelly and Billy Lovelady used to return to TSBD, which apparently was NOT guarded, and thru which Oswald could possibly have gone out that way after 3 min post shots, although its surprising no one saw Oswald do that either.

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down. ??..

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?
Mr. SAWYER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?
Mr. SAWYER. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?
Mr. SAWYER. Officers.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?
Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time? .........

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?
Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, it was possible that people could have left the building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and officer Smith stationed yourself there?
Mr. BARNETT - When I went to the door to get the name of the building, there were people going in and out then.

Mr. LIEBELER - There were?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think it was as quickly as 2 1/2 minutes from the time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? Do you think it was that quick?
Mr. BARNETT - I believe it was 2 1/2 minute probably from the time I ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes. Then it took me 20 or 30 seconds more before I got to the front there.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door?
Mr. BARNETT - Three minutes at the most. .......

Mr. STERN - You just wanted to get to that general area?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.
And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.
There were people moving around.
I asked, "Where is the manager here?"
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.
And we came back as fast as we could.
Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.
The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.
But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.
But there was traffic that slowed us up some.
Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.
Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.
Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.
And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"
He said, "No, sir."
"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"
"No, sir."
Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?
Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.
I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.
I identified myself to Mr. Truly.
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?
Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?
Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.
Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.........


As can be seen there's some conflicting testimony as would be expected. IMO, the key part of the testimony is that of Barnett himself (which I have in bold type). It's pretty obvious that Oswald did leave the building without being noticed, most likely by the front entrance.





Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #418 on: February 19, 2019, 03:46:19 PM »

You mean besides her testifying that she spoke with O. V. Campbell about the location of the shots she saw Oswald walking east, with a full coke bottle in hand (corroborated by LHO himself), in the second floor office about 2 minutes AFTER she heard the shots? BTW, it's heard and seen.

That's NOT proof....  She may have mis-remembered...... recalling someother time that she'd see Lee...Or she might have simply made it up....

After the fact she could have said.... "Why my goodness, I didn't know that he'd just shot the President ...He walked right past me "   These kind of tales are very common after some tragic event.   

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #418 on: February 19, 2019, 03:46:19 PM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #419 on: February 19, 2019, 04:10:06 PM »
That's NOT proof....  She may have mis-remembered...... recalling someother time that she'd see Lee...Or she might have simply made it up....

After the fact she could have said.... "Why my goodness, I didn't know that he'd just shot the President ...He walked right past me "   These kind of tales are very common after some tragic event.   

There's nothing in her testimony that would raise doubts about her truthfulness.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #420 on: February 19, 2019, 06:49:21 PM »
There's nothing in her testimony that would raise doubts about her truthfulness.

Of course not...imbecile!   Because they NEEDED her testimony.... And they were a hell of a lot smarter than you....Belin knew that Mrs Reid's word wasn't worth much , and he also knew there would be no defense attorney to challenge anything they proposed.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #420 on: February 19, 2019, 06:49:21 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #421 on: February 19, 2019, 10:26:38 PM »
Seeing that Mrs. Reid saw Oswald walking the opposite direction of the NW stairs I think it's fair to conclude that Oswald left the TSBD via the front entrance.

That doesn't follow at all.  Once on the first floor, both front and back entrances are easily accessible.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #422 on: February 19, 2019, 11:41:53 PM »
Peter, you started this juggling act....  with the loon's presentation of "Weatherford" climbing into that second floor window on the west side of the TSBD....Let's focus on that for just a bit..... ( and forget about the silly idea that objects were being dropped from the fifth floor)

In the short film of "Weatherford" climbing into the window .....It looks like there is a man wearing a dark jacket white shirt and tie behind the window just to the right of Weatherford....

First step.... Is the man climbing into the window Weatherford?    Can we determine a time by looking at the shadows being cast?

Weatherford's tale about climbing out onto the roof to look for spent shells is a lie....  I don't believe he went looking for shells. ....UNLESS... he knew that there was at least one spent shell out there that needed to be retrieved and destroyed.....

At the 5:55 point of the film the Loon points out that there is someone behind the fifth floor window @ 12:40 pm......And the Loon thinks it's Jarman & co.  And that's an incredible idea because Jarman & co were down on Elm Street in front of the TSBD at 12:40.   However The Loon is right.... There is someone behind that fifth floor window....and that "someone" is probably officers who are searching the building.....

Have you studied the photos, Peter?

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #422 on: February 19, 2019, 11:41:53 PM »


Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #423 on: February 20, 2019, 02:19:46 AM »
Have you studied the photos, Peter?
It is Weatherford. When looking at just that film clip of Old Harry Weatherford climbing in the window. He could have been on the roof the whole time because he definitely did not come with the 4 other officers as he states, but looney tunes found an exhibit where another officer says he met up with Weatherford at 12:50 at the back door. Watch this other part I found. More entertaining than deciding if there's a "prayer woman" in a photo when there is not