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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 70599 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #216 on: January 30, 2019, 09:47:49 PM »
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From Dallas Police Transcrips....

231 clear. 12:23.
606 out. (606 is the ambulance and it has arrived)
10-4, 606. 12:24. this is the dispatch acknowledging the ambulance arriving)
79 clear.
79 clear. 12:24.
65.
65.
Call 633.
Out to use phone. 10-4.
97 clear.
97 clear. 12:25. ...on line with 312.
606. (The ambulance calling dispatch)
606. (Dispatch acknowledging)
We're en route to Parkland with a signal 16
You're en route where, 606?

The ambulance arrived about late 12.23 and departed by 12.25

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts above).

Why do you continue to go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.

Colin, I never thought about Jarman and Norman in conjunction with the ambulance across the street from them....

When that ambulance departed it would have been a natural point for them to depart for the fifth floor.......

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #216 on: January 30, 2019, 09:47:49 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #217 on: January 30, 2019, 11:43:39 PM »
Colin, I never thought about Jarman and Norman in conjunction with the ambulance across the street from them....

When that ambulance departed it would have been a natural point for them to depart for the fifth floor.......

Was a convenient timestamp that should have been asked a number of significant witnesses......unfortunately was not used effectively.

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #218 on: January 31, 2019, 12:20:54 AM »
From Dallas Police Transcrips....

231 clear. 12:23.
606 out. (606 is the ambulance and it has arrived)
10-4, 606. 12:24. this is the dispatch acknowledging the ambulance arriving)
79 clear.
79 clear. 12:24.
65.
65.
Call 633.
Out to use phone. 10-4.
97 clear.
97 clear. 12:25. ...on line with 312.
606. (The ambulance calling dispatch)
606. (Dispatch acknowledging)
We're en route to Parkland with a signal 16
You're en route where, 606?

The ambulance arrived about late 12.23 and departed by 12.25

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts above).

Why do you continue to go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.

The salient point that proves what!!! Tell me if I'm correctly summarizing your theory;

1) According to you BRW was at one point in the SN and that Jarman and Norman were covering for BRW by claiming they all walked together to the fifth floor.

2) This coverup is supposed to have begun soon after all three were taken in for questioning.

My questions are;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

B) How does the pre-WC testimony jive with Givens testimony that he was with Jarman and Norman only...no BRW

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

C) Did BRW join Jarman and Norman after Givens left? If he did where the heck was BRW before he joined Jarman and Norman?

D) If BRW saw Oswald in the SN so what? The Dillard photo and the testimony of Jarman and Norman and that of Brennan exonarate BRW from being an accesory to the crime. I mean, why would Jarman and Norman risk themselves for being accesories to the crime by covering up for BRW if they thought he had something to do with the crime. By accesory to the crime I mean that's the only fear that would cause BRW to believe he was in any danger and needed Norman and Jarman to cover for him. It's only logical to me that if BRW had seen Oswald in the SN, even if BRW didn't see the rifle and thought Oswald was just one of the many watching the motorcade, that once he and Junior and Norman heard the shots coming from right above, that BRW would not be so stupid as to not put two and two together and tell his fifth floor buddies that he just saw Oswald were the shots came from.

F) Why would Jarman and Norman go along with covering for BRW if it was an innocent encounter?

G) Being an accesory to a murder, especially to that of the POTUS, is a pretty serious offense. Do you really believe that David Belin would have gone along with the coverup? Do you really believe that David Belin would not have brought out in the open an attempt at a cover up of any kind?

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #218 on: January 31, 2019, 12:20:54 AM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #219 on: January 31, 2019, 12:32:48 AM »
Thank you for confirming that Junior Jarman,and Shorty Norman, walked across the first floor shipping department. They said they entered the back door on the first floor and walked to the west elevator....  Therefore they walked across the first floor......And Lee Oswald saw them.

Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD. And you said Junior heard a motorcycle report of the location of the motorcade. I'll ask again. Show me where Jarman said that.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #220 on: January 31, 2019, 01:42:39 AM »
Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD. And you said Junior heard a motorcycle report of the location of the motorcade. I'll ask again. Show me where Jarman said that.

Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD.
 
If you knew what you were talking about and were an honest man, then You would know that Jarman and Norman could not have "walked along the edge of the north wall"  because the elevators occupied that space....  And since they walked to the WEST elevator, they had to have walked across the first floor shipping room....

So even though you took the dishonest cowards dodge, you have admitted that Jarman and Norman walked across the area where they would have been in full view of Lee Oswald....And he said that he saw them.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 08:28:51 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #220 on: January 31, 2019, 01:42:39 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #221 on: January 31, 2019, 05:41:58 AM »
The salient point that proves what!!! Tell me if I'm correctly summarizing your theory;

1) According to you BRW was at one point in the SN and that Jarman and Norman were covering for BRW by claiming they all walked together to the fifth floor.

2) This coverup is supposed to have begun soon after all three were taken in for questioning.

My questions are;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

B) How does the pre-WC testimony jive with Givens testimony that he was with Jarman and Norman only...no BRW

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

C) Did BRW join Jarman and Norman after Givens left? If he did where the heck was BRW before he joined Jarman and Norman?

D) If BRW saw Oswald in the SN so what? The Dillard photo and the testimony of Jarman and Norman and that of Brennan exonarate BRW from being an accesory to the crime. I mean, why would Jarman and Norman risk themselves for being accesories to the crime by covering up for BRW if they thought he had something to do with the crime. By accesory to the crime I mean that's the only fear that would cause BRW to believe he was in any danger and needed Norman and Jarman to cover for him. It's only logical to me that if BRW had seen Oswald in the SN, even if BRW didn't see the rifle and thought Oswald was just one of the many watching the motorcade, that once he and Junior and Norman heard the shots coming from right above, that BRW would not be so stupid as to not put two and two together and tell his fifth floor buddies that he just saw Oswald were the shots came from.

F) Why would Jarman and Norman go along with covering for BRW if it was an innocent encounter?

G) Being an accesory to a murder, especially to that of the POTUS, is a pretty serious offense. Do you really believe that David Belin would have gone along with the coverup? Do you really believe that David Belin would not have brought out in the open an attempt at a cover up of any kind?

The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 07:31:49 AM by Colin Crow »

Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #222 on: January 31, 2019, 07:52:06 AM »



Study the Zapruder film, study JBC testimony, study Rosemary Willis movements and see what Vincent Bugliosi has to say about Rosemary Willis in the notes section, pages 313-24. That would require that you stick your head out of the sand and would also force you to disregard the many blatant misrepresentations and lies that  make up the majority of the kook book library and filmography.
Why would I study the Z-film, I mean, using your adopted narrative, LHO went to the Soviet Union that means he's guilty. Then there's this guy named Abraham Zapruder who was born in USSR. where's the consistancy?
Hughes film shows Police motorcycle escorts right beside the Presidential limo on Houston Street, but when the Zapruder film starts, the Police escorts coming around the corner from Houston Street are amazingly without the limo.
Then out of thin air the Presidential limo appears between the escorts  on Elm Street. Was David Copperfield involved? Only 7 yrs old at the time, but get this, his family was from the same region of the USSR as Zapruder was.
Zapruder had that clothing business, and David's father was a Haberdasher.
So Oscar, did David Copperfield make that limo appear out of thin air that day in 1963 at the ripe age of 7 or what? What does it matter anyway? Well, because Oscar would believe anything.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #222 on: January 31, 2019, 07:52:06 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #223 on: February 01, 2019, 09:15:48 AM »
If Oswald had been in the Domino room at 12:25, he must have come down, from the 2nd floor lunchroom, abandoning his favorite place to eat alone occasionally, just after Carolyn Arnold saw him still in the lunchroom possibly as late as 12:17. So why would Oswald leave his favorite place, to go down to Domino room? Was he worried that since Carolyn was one the 2nd floor office women, that she might inform Mrs Reid , the supervisor, that one of the workers was using the lunchroom instead of the Domino room, the designated place for floor workers to eat lunch?

Where exactly is Oswald when the shots are fired?

The timeline for Mrs Reid meeting Oswald 30 seconds after Baker Truly  saw Oswald in the lunchroom, doesnt makes much sense to me, because of Oswald being seen in only a white T shirt, opening the door and seeing Mrs Reid, and CONTINUING into the office, and walkiing slowly, and just with an unopened coke too. This does not quite fit the logic that Oswald is supposed to be trying to get ouf the TSBD asap and was only interrupted by Baker and Truly in trying to accomplish that task.

This is why I suspect the Malcom Couch film is a composite film of the seqment of Couch film capturing Wiegman on the Grassy Knoll at approx 13 sec post shots, by reference of Wiegmans own film cut at that point, and  another seqment of film by Couch or someone else, of Baker running to the TSBD. They had to do this to establish that Mrs Reid did not return into TSBD BEFORE Baker did, and that Mrs Reid may have  started her return in to TSBD at about 10 sec post shots, if taking her WC testimony  as reference to a specitc event: People BEGINNING to fall to the ground.


In the Malcom Couch film, supposedly beginning at 24 sec post shots, there is about a 5 sec pan past what appears to be Mrs Reid along with other office women. Mr.Campbell is no longer anywhere near Mrs Reid at this point in Couch film. But Mr Campbell can be seen running by the Stemmons freeway sign, at about same time as Couch captures Weigman turning on the Grassy knoll. This is at 8 sec into Couch film.
Mrs Reid does a total 180 degree turn, faces the TSBD and it looks like shes about to start back in, as is another 'stout" woman does. . But Couch pans away past Mrs Reid, by about 5 secs into his film. At approx 8 sec mark, captures Wiegman, another cameraman, on the Grassy Knoll. This point in Couch film cannot be 30 sec post last shot, because Wiegman turning around at that point, means he has just CUT his film sequence, which from the time of jumping off his car, after 2 shots fired, and cutting the film 15 secs from jumping from the car, means that cut occurs approx. 13 sec post last shot fired.


For Couch to have managed to record Weigman on the Grassy Knoll TURNING AROUND, ie: meaing, at the point in Wiegmans film, where Wiegman CUTS his film after approx 13-15 secs from having jumped from his car, and that event in Couch film occurs at the 8 sec mark into Couch film, defacto means that Couch MUST have started his film as early as 5-7 sec post last shot.


The only other possibility, is that Wiegman cut his film at the 15 sec post last shot, and then just stood there looking at the same people he had just been filming, for another 10 seconds. This imo, does NOT seem plausible for a professional cameraman to be doing, wasting time not fliming.


Since Malcom Couch stated, that even 10 seconds is a LONG TIME in the camera business,  I have to wonder if Wiegman would do nothing for another 10 seconds other that just keep staring at the 2 subjects he has just stopped filming.


If anyone else is more of an expert in this Wiegman vs Couch film and can confirm with some statement from Weigman that he DID take another 10 seconds pause after cutting his camera, before he turned around, and restarted his camera to film the seqment of the Newmans on the ground, this would HELP ME TREMENDOUSLY because rigtht now, its a true DILEMMA to resolve.


















« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 09:37:46 AM by Zeon Mason »