Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Walt Cakebread]

You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.    Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made. Just that fact of pictures of them in some sort of re-enactment is misleading and does not establish anything but pure attempts to manipulate, as it apparently worked on you.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. He can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special Agent Carter was stretching what Norman told him or Norman is changing his story making him a hostile witness and of little use.

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Get your facts straight. Several witnesses and your example is one that corroborates what a 1000 other people say they heard -gunfire but to say casings falling to the floor above is something he heard, you mind as well say that Harold's the assassin.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, [/b][/u]

Excellent Mr K.....   Harold Norman is on record as mimicking the sounds he said that he heard that day....( He never heard any such sounds, but LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to lie, and so he did)   

Norman described the sounds a BOOM....Click, clack .....Boom ....click, clack, .... Boom.... Click, clack.....and he swore that he heard the shells hit the floor above his head...

If Norman  had heard shells falling on the floor he would have described the sounds he heard as BOOM....Click, PLINK,..  clack .....Boom ....click, Plink, .. clack, .... Boom.... Click,  PLINK .. clack....

Norman lied...Just as LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to do.....

[Colin Crow]

According to Brennan's testimony he was in position by that time. So we have competing versions.

Look, if you want to debate and discuss BRW first day statement then let's also debate and discuss Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 statement to the SS. I think it's it's only fair.

Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you. would, there, please.

Brennan watched them pick up the man and then took up position. The ambulance left about 12.25. That how I arrived at my estimate of Brennan taking position sitting on the wall. How did you arrive at your version?

I am happy to move onto other differences  but as I said it is difficult to determine our differences unless the common ground is established.

Williams pre-assassination movements, as intimated in his first day statement, is consistent with the various statements of Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC.

Does anyone believe this statement to be false?

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.  There are pictures taken after the Hughes film ends where they have their heads out the window trying to look up.  Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made.

From which post did I select Brennan as you claim? In your reply #156 to my post #153 You are the one that includes Brennan. So get your facts straight. BTW, both the Dillard photo and the Hughes film show BRW and Junior Jarman on the fifth floor. The photos taken after the event are re-creations to determine the positions BRW, Jarman and Norman occupied when they were on the fifth floor. The accounts of the Norman hearing three shells dropping is confirmed by Junior Jarman and I believe also by BRW.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see xxxx. Claiming to hear casing hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. Hr can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special was putting words in Norman's mouth making Norman a hostile witness and of little use.

This is from Harold Norman's affidavit of 12/4/1963;

Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.

You were saying!!!

I never said that you said Brennen, but what you said was this-

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK."


So then, I said "you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous".


I brought Brennen and I never said you did. I used what Brennen claims to try to pin down the 3  who were on 5th floor, specifically Norman's testimony.  I have problems with Brennen(who I brought up) and problems with the 3 clowns on the 5th floor(who you brought up).

When you say "several witnesses" what the hell does that mean? Does it mean you get to cherry-pick a few out of "several"? I'm asking because if you take, for example, your 3 clowns on the 5th floor then I will add Brennen plus the Rowlands for argument's sake, all to show they their claims conflict with one another's.

1- The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight
2-the Rowlands claim to see a man with a gun at one point and notices another man on the same floor well before the assassination dismissing it thinking they were security
3 Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

[Oscar Navarro]

Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you. would, there, please.

Brennan watched them pick up the man and then took up position. The ambulance left about 12.25. That how I arrived at my estimate of Brennan taking position sitting on the wall. How did you arrive at your version?

I am happy to move onto other differences  but as I said it is difficult to determine our differences unless the common ground is established.

Williams pre-assassination movements, as intimated in his first day statement, is consistent with the various statements of Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC.

Does anyone believe this statement to be false?

Brennan did not sit on the retaining wall until after the epileptic was taken away by the ambulance as you believe. He saw the man having an epileptic fit before he sat on the ledge. He then assumed that he had been picked up by an ambulance.

Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?
Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.
Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to--
Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston
Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they
141

were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.........

Representative Ford. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. At about 12
Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination...........

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store............







 

[Oscar Navarro]

I never said that you said Brennen, but what you said was this-

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK."


So then, I said "you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous".


I brought Brennen and I never said you did. I used what Brennen claims to try to pin down the 3  who were on 5th floor, specifically Norman's testimony.  I have problems with Brennen(who I brought up) and problems with the 3 clowns on the 5th floor(who you brought up).

When you say "several witnesses" what the hell does that mean? Does it mean you get to cherry-pick a few out of "several"? I'm asking because if you take, for example, your 3 clowns on the 5th floor then I will add Brennen plus the Rowlands for argument's sake, all to show they their claims conflict with one another's.

1- The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight
2-the Rowlands claim to see a man with a gun at one point and notices another man on the same floor well before the assassination dismissing it thinking they were security
3 Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

This is my original post;

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JF" post #153


The several witnesses who either saw the sniper shooting (A), part of the gun being withdrawn(B), what appeared to be something that could be a gun(C), or movement after the third shot(D) are;

1) Howard L. Brennan(A)

2) Amos Lee Euins(A)

3) Robert H. Jackson(B)

4) Mrs. Earle Cabell(C)

5) James N. Crawford(D)


The Rowlands, in plural as in Mr. and Mrs. Rowland, didn't see ****. Arnold Rowlands claims are about as bogus as a $3 bill. Mrs. Rowland never saw anything that her husband claimed and even added that Arnold tends to exaggerate things.


Brennan never claimed to have seen a man with a gun before the shots and his only discrepancy has to do with whether he could have identified Oswald as the man he saw shooting from the sixth floor SE corner window. He first claimed that it could have been Oswald but then later clarified his statement to the WC and declared that "in all sincerity" he could have identified Oswald during the lineup but didn't so because he feared he was the only witness at the time who could have identified the shooter and, fearing that it might be a Communist conspiracy, decided not to positively identify Oswald in the lineup. 

[Oscar Navarro]

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, [/b][/u]

Excellent Mr K.....   Harold Norman is on record as mimicking the sounds he said that he heard that day....( He never heard any such sounds, but LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to lie, and so he did)   

Norman described the sounds a BOOM....Click, clack .....Boom ....click, clack, .... Boom.... Click, clack.....and he swore that he heard the shells hit the floor above his head...

If Norman  had heard shells falling on the floor he would have described the sounds he heard as BOOM....Click, PLINK,..  clack .....Boom ....click, Plink, .. clack, .... Boom.... Click,  PLINK .. clack....

Norman lied...Just as LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to do.....

You're describing the sounds you hear as your miniscule brain attempts to think, Foghorn.

[Walt Cakebread]

I never said that you said Brennen, but what you said was this-

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK."


So then, I said "you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous".


I brought Brennen and I never said you did. I used what Brennen claims to try to pin down the 3  who were on 5th floor, specifically Norman's testimony.  I have problems with Brennen(who I brought up) and problems with the 3 clowns on the 5th floor(who you brought up).

When you say "several witnesses" what the hell does that mean? Does it mean you get to cherry-pick a few out of "several"? I'm asking because if you take, for example, your 3 clowns on the 5th floor then I will add Brennen plus the Rowlands for argument's sake, all to show they their claims conflict with one another's.

1- The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight
2-the Rowlands claim to see a man with a gun at one point and notices another man on the same floor well before the assassination dismissing it thinking they were security
3 Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

I don't believe that HB said he saw the "High Powered rifle ie;  (HUNTING RIFLE) before the shooting....He said he saw the 175 pound man who was dressed in light colored khaki clothes AIMING the HIGH POWERED rifle DURING the shooting and he saw him place the rifle down at his side after the shooting....

His testimony was intended to be confusing....LBJ's cover up committee wanted us pissants to be confused.....

[Jerry Freeman]

  The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight 

Who was it that called them Larry, Curly, and Moe....wasn't it Howard Gee?