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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 69596 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #136 on: January 22, 2019, 11:22:33 PM »
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That is brainstorming. Who's Juan?

Juan Jose Castro.... A close relative of Fidel.....  :D

C'mon.....What pat of "imaginary" don't you understand?    I invented that scenario to demonstrate that it's possible that Lee was given the gun in the Theater....


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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #136 on: January 22, 2019, 11:22:33 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #137 on: January 22, 2019, 11:33:05 PM »
In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. He stated that the shots came from above. He was brought in for questioning because he was identified as someone who had earlier worked on that floor. Obviously by 2 pm he was aware the 6th floor was a "spot of keen interest" to the police yet does not mention that he had been there. His statement simply states that after leaving the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?. They were there only a short time before the shooting.

So on day one his story is simply, went down with the flooring crew about 11.50pm to have lunch and then went with Jarman and Norman to the 5th floor just before the shooting.

He also knew Oswald was in police custody at this time. Highlighting the police focus on the prime suspect following his arrest, Williams states he had not seen Oswald since 8 am that morning. About the time Williams was released from the DPD his chicken lunch and Dr Pepper bottle arrived at the Police Department via Officer Marvin Johnson as part of the evidence recovered from the 6th floor crime scene. It was also around this time that the WFAA-TV news report linked the lunch and pop bottle to the assassin.

Carl Day eventually admitted in his WC testimony that he eventually established the ownership of the lunch until 3 days later.
Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Note that the other TSBD employees were not fingerprinted until June 1964 two months after Day testified.

Saturday, the day after the assassination, Williams was visited by FBI Agents Odum and Griffin and a statement prepared following his interview with them. Just a day after the assassination the only people who would be aware of a gunman on the 6th floor of the TSBD as early as 12.15pm the day before would be the assassin (s), Arnold Rowland and his wife, Roger Craig and the few police and officials who were involved with taking Rowland's statement (or were subsequently informed) and Rosemary Allen (the notary who signed his statement). Another person who might have known was the man who Rowland claimed in his WC testimony to have observed in the SN prior to 12.15 until about 12.25 pm.

Williams now provided significant alterations and additions to his statement given just the day before to the DPD. He moved the time for the descent in the elevator race, shifting it 20 minutes earlier than the time he stated just the day before to, 11.30am. However, the men did in fact break for lunch about 11.50am as he initially stated. In addition, he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn?t remember this sighting at all.

Significantly, he now told of a lunch trip to the 6th floor prior to the shooting. There were no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He simply claimed he went back upstairs half an hour later, about 12. If we apply a 30 minute time shift correction this actually occurred about 12.20 pm. His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch! So now the story is that he did not go to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman but went, albeit briefly to the 6th floor, before joining them on the floor below. Williams says this was half an hour after the elevator race, arrives at noon and is gone by about 12.03 pm. However, if we add the 30 minute time shift, it becomes; arrives on the 6th floor at 12.20pm, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.23pm.  By moving the elevator race 20 minutes earlier I believe he is attempting to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor after 12.15 onwards?

Williams is clearly aware of the significance of the SE corner of the building as he makes specific reference to it and that he observed no one there that morning before the descent at 11.30 am (he mentions that time again, just to reinforce!) He would not be able to see the corner while working that morning because of the arrangement of boxes there. However he said that he did go to the windows in his brief lunchtime visit but did not notice anyone standing at the windows. The implication being that Williams was standing at the windows and that maybe the assassin was sitting in the SN but would be hidden from view. This later would evolve into Williams sitting and eating his lunch and the sitting assassin not visible from that position.

On day two, after the widespread announcements about the assassins chicken lunch, Williams changed his story to, being on the 6th floor about noon, walking to the windows, staying briefly, then joining Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor about 12.05pm. It would also mean that Jarman and Norman ascended just after noon.

Before we move on would appreciate and significant disagreements with this analysis.

This analysis is for any members who are here to "discuss and debate" the assassination. I would hope that those who read this can appreciate the time and effort that goes into the sourcing and analysis of the official documents on which it is based. For those of you who wish to engage and offer an opinion feel free to do so.

I would offer the following two statements for consideration.

Bonnie Ray Williams provided a written statement to the DPD, on the day of the assassination, that described his movements prior to the arrival of the motorcade that was essentially consistent with the statements provided Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC. Agree or disagree?

Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?

Who is up for "discussion and debate"?

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2019, 11:51:33 PM »
This analysis is for any members who are here to "discuss and debate" the assassination. I would hope that those who read this can appreciate the time and effort that goes into the sourcing and analysis of the official documents on which it is based. For those of you who wish to engage and offer an opinion feel free to do so.

I would offer the following two statements for consideration.

Bonnie Ray Williams provided a written statement to the DPD, on the day of the assassination, that described his movements prior to the arrival of the motorcade that was essentially consistent with the statements provided Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC. Agree or disagree?

Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?

Who is up for "discussion and debate"?

In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. [/b]

The Bonnie Lad was locked up in a police car....There's little doubt that he heard the radio regarding the search for Charles Givens.....

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2019, 11:51:33 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #139 on: January 23, 2019, 12:15:03 AM »
In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. [/b]

The Bonnie Lad was locked up in a police car....There's little doubt that he heard the radio regarding the search for Charles Givens.....

Jarman and Norman knew Givens had left prior....they started out with him to the car lot (on Record?) to watch. They are most likely source of that information to Williams. Likely happened during the "roll call" or similar activity.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 12:45:37 AM by Colin Crow »

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #140 on: January 23, 2019, 12:25:41 AM »
This analysis is for any members who are here to "discuss and debate" the assassination. I would hope that those who read this can appreciate the time and effort that goes into the sourcing and analysis of the official documents on which it is based. For those of you who wish to engage and offer an opinion feel free to do so.

I would offer the following two statements for consideration.

Bonnie Ray Williams provided a written statement to the DPD, on the day of the assassination, that described his movements prior to the arrival of the motorcade that was essentially consistent with the statements provided Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC. Agree or disagree?

Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?

Who is up for "discussion and debate"?


OK, let's discuss and debate. I think BRW had no reason to lie and neither did Jarman and Norman. I have posted my opinion on the subject already. The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission. I think relying on Arnold Rowland's testimony is foolish. I agree with your following statement "Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?" I won't be able to fully engage until Thursday night at the earliest as I have some commitments.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #140 on: January 23, 2019, 12:25:41 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #141 on: January 23, 2019, 12:38:22 AM »

OK, let's discuss and debate. I think BRW had no reason to lie and neither did Jarman and Norman. I have posted my opinion on the subject already. The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission. I think relying on Arnold Rowland's testimony is foolish. I agree with your following statement "Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?" I won't be able to fully engage until Thursday night at the earliest as I have some commitments.

Thanks Oscar. What about the first statement? Was Williams handwritten first day statement consistent with what Jarman and Norman indicated prior to their appearances before the WC? Does it indicate that he went downstairs for lunch then went up with them to the fifth floor just before the assassination? Yes or no?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 12:46:20 AM by Colin Crow »

Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #142 on: January 23, 2019, 06:28:05 AM »
Juan Jose Castro.... A close relative of Fidel.....  :D

C'mon.....What pat of "imaginary" don't you understand?    I invented that scenario to demonstrate that it's possible that Lee was given the gun in the Theater....
Well, if LHO was set-up, of course, he would have to of been directed to the theater to unknowingly meet a zillion officers for what, not paying the admission?  Instead, they should have sent LHO to Ruth Paine's neighbor. Sure, it's miles away but if Lee can do all these impossible tasks you just create another impossible feat.
Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #142 on: January 23, 2019, 06:28:05 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #143 on: January 23, 2019, 05:11:03 PM »
Well, if LHO was set-up, of course, he would have to of been directed to the theater to unknowingly meet a zillion officers for what, not paying the admission?  Instead, they should have sent LHO to Ruth Paine's neighbor. Sure, it's miles away but if Lee can do all these impossible tasks you just create another impossible feat.
Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go


Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go

The imaginary dialog took place IN the Texas Theater AFTER Lee left the rooming house.....  Are you aware that there were three of Hoover's men in the Texas Theater at the time Lee was dragged from the theater.....  Imagine that... Federal agents pursuing someone who had sneaked into a theater!