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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 70687 times)

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2019, 03:00:47 AM »
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But somehow you assume that three different versions of what was said during interrogations must all be accurate and therefore Oswald "changed his story".  Interesting...

Oswald was a known uber liar so there's no reason to believe anything he said.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2019, 03:00:47 AM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2019, 03:39:26 AM »
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According to Dallas police radio logs the motorcade was at Ross at 12.20 and Live Oak at 12.22. This would have placed it at Main about 12.24pm.

So I suggest the best evidence provided by Norman was that they started to go upstairs about 12.24. It took them a t least a couple of minutes to get into position. they arrived at about 12.26 or so. This might explain why neither of these two report anything about the Belknap seizure and ambulance arrival as they were on their journey around the back of the TSBD and up the elevator. Interestingly Williams fails to mention the ambulance arrival in any of his statements, I wonder why he might not mention that (time-stamped) event as it was raised by other key witnesses (Brennan and Rowland come to mind). The "final" official story has Williams descending from the sixth floor after Jarman and Norman are in position......so he vacates his position no earlier than 12.26pm


Timeline according to 6th Floor Museum; Motorcade turns into Main St. 12:21 p.m.

https://www.jfk.org/the-assassination/jfk-assassination-timeline/

DPD radio log has motorcade reaching intersection of Harwood and Live Oak before 12:22 p.m. that's three blocks from Main St. While on main St. the motorcade was travelling at a speed of from 10-15 MPH (see Kellerman WCT). There's also the question as to how Norman knew of the motorcade arriving at Main St. has to be explained. KLIF was not reporting the location of the motorcade once it left Love Field (see David Von Pein You Tube channel) and there's no evidence there was a two or three wheeler DPD motorbike outside the DTBD while Norman was out side waiting for the motorcade.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2019, 03:42:39 AM »
Before I get to my response to this thread I read the Three Stooges thread and was impressed by your arguments and with the information provided, so kudos to you. It's too bad that it was temporarily hijacked by Tutti and Frutti but that can't be helped.

Nevertheless, I was not persuaded to adopt the conclusion you appear to have arrived at for the following reasons. BRW was very vague as to where he left the remains of the chicken lunch, the bag, and even the Dr. Pepper bottle. This ties in with Mooney's testimony as to where he found the chicken bone and the paper bag. He placed the chicken bone and the bag laying on the top of one of two boxes (see CE-513)

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL - On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.



These boxes marked by Mooney formed part of the wall of boxes between the SN and the area where BRW said he was during his stay on the sixth floor. BRW could just as easily have placed the chicken and the paper bag from outside the SN and not seen LHO in the SN if he was there during the time BRW was at the sixth floor. IMO, LHO could have been just about anywhere on the sixth floor and have made it to the SN from the time BRW left the sixth floor on his way down to the fifth floor to meet up with Junior and Norman without beeing seen by BRW. Where I don't believe LHO could have been was on the SW end of the sixth floor where Arnold Rowland says he saw someone with a rifle at about 12:15 p.m. because BRW had a clear line of sight from where he claimed to have been eating his lunch towards the west of the TSBD facing south. I also don't believe that Rowland saw a man who could have been BRW inside the SN because it's not recorded in any of the previous interviews before his testimony to the WC and never mentioned it to his wife. While Rowland was probably a nice young man he was prone to exxagerations and many of his other observations during his testimony were just fabrications.

As to Norman's and Jarman's statements these guys got together before their WC testimony and ironed out the differences in their statements because, IMO, they wanted to be as accurate as possible but not to come clean for past attempts to cover for BRW.



This is an authentic photo of the so called "Sniper's Nest" as it appeared at about 1:15 that afternoon....

Notice that there is a stack of three boxes of Rolling Readers within inches of the south wall and the window in that south wall is less than half way open.
The stack of three boxes ( "X" on top box) that are closer to the camera were about 1 foot from the stack of rolling Readers.  And the boxes on the left were against the East wall.    This should be enough to show how small and cramped the so called "Sniper's Nest" was....and the impossibility of anybody STANDING and firing a rifle from that site.
A)The window is not open wide enough to allow a standing gunman to fire down on to Elm street. ( The bullet would hit the cement ledge beneath the window)
B)He could not have stood behind the stack of rolling readers because there was room enough between the two stacks of boxes( the stacks with the two X's) 
C) He could not have stood behind the taller stack of boxes with the X because He couldn't have declined the barrel of the rifle and he would have been too far back from the window and behind the stack of boxes so nobody ( Howard Brennan) could have seen him from the street in front of the TSBD.
D) He could not have been sitting on a box to the left ( along the east wall) and utilized the stack of Rolling Readers as a rifle rest because he could not have declined the barrel don and hit a target on Elm street.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2019, 03:42:39 AM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2019, 03:46:17 AM »
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Note that when he arrived at the east elevator closest to the back door it was not visible from that position. It was confirmed it was on the sixth floor after they arrived at the west elevator and looked up. He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28, just minutes before the shots. After reaching the SE corner they opened the windows, at that time Williams could have been aware of their presence. Whether that was the reason for him vacating the 6th floor or something else happened after they were there is an interesting question. What would make Williams leave his chicken unfinished and exit the "shooting scene" to join them just before the motorcade arrived?

BRW said he got bored ? waiting for Arce and Lovelady, heard movement and windows opening below his floor and went down to check out the fifth floor.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2019, 03:53:02 AM »
BRW said he got bored ? waiting for Arce and Lovelady, heard movement and windows opening below his floor and went down to check out the fifth floor.

So Williams was alerted to Jarman and Norman talking on the floor beneath his feet, but he never noticed the noisy elevator that had just arrived ??? Maybe BRW was making things up.....

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2019, 03:53:02 AM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2019, 03:55:20 AM »
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Notice that there is a stack of three boxes of Rolling Readers within inches of the south wall and the window in that south wall is less than half way open.
The stack of three boxes ( "X" on top box) that are closer to the camera were about 1 foot from the stack of rolling Readers.  And the boxes on the left were against the East wall.    This should be enough to show how small and cramped the so called "Sniper's Nest" was....and the impossibility of anybody STANDING and firing a rifle from that site.
A)The window is not open wide enough to allow a standing gunman to fire down on to Elm street. ( The bullet would hit the cement ledge beneath the window)
B)He could not have stood behind the stack of rolling readers because there was room enough between the two stacks of boxes( the stacks with the two X's) 
C) He could not have stood behind the taller stack of boxes with the X because He couldn't have declined the barrel of the rifle and he would have been too far back from the window and behind the stack of boxes so nobody ( Howard Brennan) could have seen him from the street in front of the TSBD.
D) He could not have been sitting on a box to the left ( along the east wall) and utilized the stack of Rolling Readers as a rifle rest because he could not have declined the barrel don and hit a target on Elm street.


I'm sure you're referring to Brennan's description of Oswald standing to shoot. From his vantage point Oswald would appear to be standing just as BRW, Junior and Norman would appear to be standing behind the windows. I believe, and I'm not sure about this, that Brennan described BRW and Norman or Junior as standing also.

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2019, 04:02:11 AM »
So Williams was alerted to Jarman and Norman talking on the floor beneath his feet, but he never noticed the noisy elevator that had just arrived ??? Maybe BRW was making things up.....

Which noisy elevator would that be. The one almost at the NW corner that Norman and Jarman used to get to the fifth floor? How do you know these elevators where so noisy that BRW would have noticed the sound from all the way from the southern side of the TSBD? And didn't Norman say that it was more noisy on 11/22 than when the test for the falling cartridges were done months later?

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2019, 04:02:11 AM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2019, 04:08:47 AM »
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Not the definitive account that claimed he ate with the two but what appears to be an attempt by Oswald to think of anything that might suggest he was on the first floor. Is it possible he saw them walk by the lunchroom on the way to the elevator? Of course it is.....

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.


Oswald was killed by Ruby on the 24th. Why follow up on claims by an uber liar? You believe these interrogators where so gullible as to think Oswald was telling the truth?