Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 69564 times)

Offline Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2019, 07:22:42 AM »
Advertisement
Speaking of improved memories, who helped Rowland improve his?

Perhaps he had a post traumatic vision of Williams eating his lunch and then departing after 12.25.....hang on....he forgot to mention the chicken lunch found in the SN......he must have made it up. The assembled information shows his to be merely confirmatory of Williams movments.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2019, 07:22:42 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2019, 07:23:55 AM »
So, Norman and Jarman were already on the fifth floor when Brennan arrived at his position at 12:22?

Any documented timestamps to back up your question? Brennan gives the clue in his WC testimony when he took up position. The ambulance and fit are your best friend to determine when. I believe he took up position after after 12.25. But this has all been posted before.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 07:31:21 AM by Colin Crow »

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1824
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #90 on: January 19, 2019, 07:34:11 AM »
Any documented timestamps to back up your question? Brennan gives the clue in his WC testimony when he took up position. The ambulance and fit are your best friend to determine when. I believe he took up position after after 12.25. But this has all been posted before.


I got it wrong. Brennan arrived at the corner of Houston and Elm at about 12:22 but never took his position on the retainer wall until a few minutes later.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #90 on: January 19, 2019, 07:34:11 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #91 on: January 19, 2019, 07:40:34 AM »

I got it wrong. Brennan arrived at the corner of Houston and Elm at about 12:22 but never took his position on the retainer wall until a few minutes later.
Thanks Tim. He did not take up position until the ambulancence left at 12.25.

Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2019, 09:12:32 AM »
Any documented timestamps to back up your question? Brennan gives the clue in his WC testimony when he took up position. The ambulance and fit are your best friend to determine when. I believe he took up position after after 12.25. But this has all been posted before.

The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony

So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems.
Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail.

Got it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 09:32:19 AM by Bill Chapman »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2019, 09:12:32 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #93 on: January 19, 2019, 10:38:52 AM »
The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony

So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems.
Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail.

Got it.

I don?t know the exact times Bill, these are merely reconstructed from the document we have to do so. The concept of time gives us a way of determining what happened when. Not the exact times but it?s the order and sequence of events Bill. Are you sure the ambulance arrived at 12.19? 12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman.

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7322
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2019, 11:23:01 AM »
I don?t know the exact times Bill, these are merely reconstructed from the document we have to do so. The concept of time gives us a way of determining what happened when. Not the exact times but it?s the order and sequence of events Bill. Are you sure the ambulance arrived at 12.19? 12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman.

Bill the troll wrote:    "The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony"


"So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems. Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail."


Got it.

Colin ....This is a favorite tactic of the knit pickin,  chicken spit LNer's, like Chappie.....And you're right...."12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman".

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2019, 11:23:01 AM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2019, 02:57:40 AM »
You seem either incapable or unwilling to appreciate the assembled information and it?s implications.

The official story is that the shots were fired from the SN at about 12.30. At that time Williams, Jarman and Norman were in the windows immediately below. About 40 minutes later Mooney finds the shells and chicken lunch remnants in the SN. This was verified by numerous police who arrived shortly after and made statements of their observations. Someone (likely Gerald Hill) moved the lunch and eventually placed the chicken piece and bones in the lunchsack. This occurred prior to the arrival of Fritz. The lunch was considered evidence and thought to belong to the assassin. This was widely reported in the media for a few days.

Williams was aware of Oswald?s arrest when he was questioned on the afternoon of the assassination. He was aware of the importance of the 6th floor (it was the reason he was taken for questioning). He deceived and lied about his movements for the duration of the investigation. Eventually he admitted he joined Jarman and Norman shortly before the shots.

Until their WC appearance Jarman and Norman maintained that Williams ascended to the 6th floor with them. Why did they continue to lie about his movements? The timing of his descent and his position in the SN is completely consistent with the essential observations of Arnold Rowland in his WC testimony.

I am not suggesting Williams was in any way part of the shooting. Just that analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

Before I get to my response to this thread I read the Three Stooges thread and was impressed by your arguments and with the information provided, so kudos to you. It's too bad that it was temporarily hijacked by Tutti and Frutti but that can't be helped.

Nevertheless, I was not persuaded to adopt the conclusion you appear to have arrived at for the following reasons. BRW was very vague as to where he left the remains of the chicken lunch, the bag, and even the Dr. Pepper bottle. This ties in with Mooney's testimony as to where he found the chicken bone and the paper bag. He placed the chicken bone and the bag laying on the top of one of two boxes (see CE-513)

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL - On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.



These boxes marked by Mooney formed part of the wall of boxes between the SN and the area where BRW said he was during his stay on the sixth floor. BRW could just as easily have placed the chicken and the paper bag from outside the SN and not seen LHO in the SN if he was there during the time BRW was at the sixth floor. IMO, LHO could have been just about anywhere on the sixth floor and have made it to the SN from the time BRW left the sixth floor on his way down to the fifth floor to meet up with Junior and Norman without beeing seen by BRW. Where I don't believe LHO could have been was on the SW end of the sixth floor where Arnold Rowland says he saw someone with a rifle at about 12:15 p.m. because BRW had a clear line of sight from where he claimed to have been eating his lunch towards the west of the TSBD facing south. I also don't believe that Rowland saw a man who could have been BRW inside the SN because it's not recorded in any of the previous interviews before his testimony to the WC and never mentioned it to his wife. While Rowland was probably a nice young man he was prone to exxagerations and many of his other observations during his testimony were just fabrications.

As to Norman's and Jarman's statements these guys got together before their WC testimony and ironed out the differences in their statements because, IMO, they wanted to be as accurate as possible but not to come clean for past attempts to cover for BRW.