Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Colin Crow]

So lets look at what Harold Norman provided........all of it.

Norman was not interviewed by the DPD immediately after the assassination. He was interviewed by the FBI on the 26th of November, the Tuesday following the assassination. As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.

The Secret Service interviewed Norman in the first week of December.

AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
/s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service

Secret Service Report extracted from CD87 states that about 12.15pm "....he and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, both employees of the depository, went to the fifth floor to watch the Presidential motorcade pass by."

March 18 FBI Interview

Just before he testified before the Warren Commission Norman provided a brief statement. It added little to his story. He simply stateed he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appears that he felt the shots occurred at this time. Again there was no indication that Williams had joined them at the windows just before the motorcade from the floor that the shots came from minutes later.

March 24 Warren Commission Testimony

When did they leave the front of the building to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Note that for the first time, 4 months after the shooting, he states that only he and Jarman ascended to the 5th floor.

According to Dallas police radio logs the motorcade was at Ross at 12.20 and Live Oak at 12.22. This would have placed it at Main about 12.24pm.

So I suggest the best evidence provided by Norman was that they started to go upstairs about 12.24. It took them a t least a couple of minutes to get into position. they arrived at about 12.26 or so. This might explain why neither of these two report anything about the Belknap seizure and ambulance arrival as they were on their journey around the back of the TSBD and up the elevator. Interestingly Williams fails to mention the ambulance arrival in any of his statements, I wonder why he might not mention that (time-stamped) event as it was raised by other key witnesses (Brennan and Rowland come to mind). The "final" official story has Williams descending from the sixth floor after Jarman and Norman are in position......so he vacates his position no earlier than 12.26pm.

For Tim, posted in this thread two days ago. Harold Norman.

[Colin Crow]

Now lets look at Jarman's various submissions.

November 23 DPD Statement
Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

There are no details about anything after the shots, the sole focus of this statement is on the prime suspect Oswald and Oswald alone. Jarman offered no details about how many shots or his proximity to them. Note that on this same day, Oswald has supposedly claimed under interrogation that Jarman and Norman had eaten lunch with them.

FBI Interview Nov 24
Jarman was interviewed the following day by the FBI and a statement produced. This statement is consistent with his DPD statement the previous day. The additional information provided largely centres on his presence on the fifth floor, who he was with at the time of the shots and his recollection of what happened immediately after. His recall of his positioning and co-workers at the fifth floor windows is accurate compared to the imprecise descriptions of positioning provided by Bonnie Ray. There was no mention of the ascent prior to the shots.

Secret Service Interview December 2nd
Jarman was interviewed by the SS in the first week of December and his statement formed part of WC document 87. "After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor".

January 14 FBI
Jarman was interviewed by the FBI in mid-January and in this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon.

"He said that he and Harold "Hank" Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams were all employed at the TSBD at Dallas in November 22, 1963. He said that he and the other two boys ate lunch on the first floor about noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25 pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade. He said they stayed there until they heard the sound of the shots; then they went downstairs. He said Ray and Norman were with him all the time he was on the first floor and they did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time between 12.00 noon until they returned to the first floor after the shooting."

This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25. Note the time is 12.25.....pretty close to the time from Norman's final account he but tries once again to includes Williams with them from noon onwards.

March 24 WC Testimony
Jarman now meets up with Norman his way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and stood west of the steps on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD. He originally added Williams to that group but his memory is quickly "corrected" by Joseph Ball. He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him "(they) came out later". I assume was he referring to Shelley as well? If Williams joined Norman and Jarman on the fifth floor before 12.15, Truly, Campbell and Lovelady were already outside minutes before this time.

Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.

Note that when he arrived at the east elevator closest to the back door it was not visible from that position. It was confirmed it was on the sixth floor after they arrived at the west elevator and looked up. He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28, just minutes before the shots. After reaching the SE corner they opened the windows, at that time Williams could have been aware of their presence. Whether that was the reason for him vacating the 6th floor or something else happened after they were there is an interesting question. What would make Williams leave his chicken unfinished and exit the "shooting scene" to join them just before the motorcade arrived?

For Tim,
Posted two days ago in this thread. James Jarman.

It?s one thing to not recall some detail that happened......it?s another to recall something that didn?t. The chances of both doing such a thing? After all these guys were mentioned specifically by the accused. They were closest to the SN at the time of the shots. They lied repeatedly about the movement of Williams, who was on the sixth floor, in the SN, just minutes before the shots.

[Colin Crow]

It's quite easy to get around. 

At least you're honest. Not a convincing argument just a away of "avoiding"......getting around.

[Colin Crow]

Oh? About the same time? The ambulance got there at 12:23.

My copy of the DPD tapes has dispatch acknowledge 606 out with a timestamp of 12.24. Fits nicely with my timeline. Jarman and Norman on their way. Williams sitting on the 6th floor looking out I assume. Maybe he didn?t hear the ambulance. As we can see that event is a valuable timestamp......pity those running the investigation weren?t smart enough to use it.

[Tim Nickerson]

For Tim, posted in this thread two days ago. Harold Norman.

Harold Norman said that he went to the fifth floor. He said that Williams and Jarman also went to the fifth floor. They were all up there together. That's how I read it.

[Tim Nickerson]

My copy of the DPD tapes has dispatch acknowledge 606 out with a timestamp of 12.24. Fits nicely with my timeline. Jarman and Norman on their way. Williams sitting on the 6th floor looking out I assume. Maybe he didn?t hear the ambulance. As we can see that event is a valuable timestamp......pity those running the investigation weren?t smart enough to use it.

My copy of the DPD tapes has 606 notifying Dispatch that they are out at a 12:23 timestamp. Do either Norman or Jarman ever mention the ambulance?

[Tim Nickerson]

At least you're honest. Not a convincing argument just a away of "avoiding"......getting around.

I prefer to not call people liars when there are other alternatives. Why would they lie about Williams eating lunch with them? If they really did mean to say that Williams traveled with them to the fifth floor, what was their purpose in saying so if they knew it to be false?

[Colin Crow]

My copy of the DPD tapes has 606 notifying Dispatch that they are out at a 12:23 timestamp. Do either Norman or Jarman ever mention the ambulance?

The very next is dispatch acknowledging them.....and on the same line he says 12.24. Seems to me to be closer to 12.24 but no matter. They do not mention it nor were they asked in either the WC or HSCA. Pity. We have Harold Norman?s recollection of the motorcade at main.....that was about 12.24 so close enough. Maybe that was a mis memory too.