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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 69554 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2019, 08:43:43 PM »
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Well, you posted that Williams left the SN, which was on the sixth floor. Dillard Exhibit C would blow that theory to smithereens. It also appears that you have unwittingly answered your own question as to why would Williams, Jarman and Norman would have to lie.  They didn't! You have taken bits of confused and conflicting testimony of three individuals and made it into a sinister conspiracy without motive. Take three witness testimonies of an event and you'll likely get three different versions of that event. I'm sure this has been repeated a million times but it's a truism that has to be brought into the discussion because CTers just don't quite get it.

You seem either incapable or unwilling to appreciate the assembled information and it?s implications.

The official story is that the shots were fired from the SN at about 12.30. At that time Williams, Jarman and Norman were in the windows immediately below. About 40 minutes later Mooney finds the shells and chicken lunch remnants in the SN. This was verified by numerous police who arrived shortly after and made statements of their observations. Someone (likely Gerald Hill) moved the lunch and eventually placed the chicken piece and bones in the lunchsack. This occurred prior to the arrival of Fritz. The lunch was considered evidence and thought to belong to the assassin. This was widely reported in the media for a few days.

Williams was aware of Oswald?s arrest when he was questioned on the afternoon of the assassination. He was aware of the importance of the 6th floor (it was the reason he was taken for questioning). He deceived and lied about his movements for the duration of the investigation. Eventually he admitted he joined Jarman and Norman shortly before the shots.

Until their WC appearance Jarman and Norman maintained that Williams ascended to the 6th floor with them. Why did they continue to lie about his movements? The timing of his descent and his position in the SN is completely consistent with the essential observations of Arnold Rowland in his WC testimony.

I am not suggesting Williams was in any way part of the shooting. Just that analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2019, 08:43:43 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2019, 10:44:44 PM »
Take three witness testimonies of an event and you'll likely get three different versions of that event. I'm sure this has been repeated a million times but it's a truism that has to be brought into the discussion because CTers just don't quite get it.

But somehow you assume that three different versions of what was said during interrogations must all be accurate and therefore Oswald "changed his story".  Interesting...

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2019, 10:50:36 PM »
Name the 'multiple' witnesses

Roger Craig
Marvin Robinson
Helen Forrest
Roy Cooper
James Pennington


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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2019, 10:50:36 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2019, 11:07:39 PM »
Roger Craig
Marvin Robinson
Helen Forrest
Roy Cooper
James Pennington



Roger Craig
Marvin Robinson
Helen Forrest
Roy Cooper
James Pennington



Back at ya, tough guy



Roger Craig


Marvin Robinson


Helen Forrest


Roy Cooper


James Pennington

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2019, 11:12:47 PM »
Meanwhile, there are multiple witnesses for LHO getting into a car.

Nah, just one


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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2019, 11:12:47 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2019, 11:29:55 PM »

The timeline for Norman's and Jarman's presence on the first floor is sketchy. Harold Norman said on his 12/4/1963

 " About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the buuilding overlooking Elm Street."



 

So lets look at what Harold Norman provided........all of it.

Norman was not interviewed by the DPD immediately after the assassination. He was interviewed by the FBI on the 26th of November, the Tuesday following the assassination. As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.

The Secret Service interviewed Norman in the first week of December.

AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
/s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service

Secret Service Report extracted from CD87 states that about 12.15pm "....he and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, both employees of the depository, went to the fifth floor to watch the Presidential motorcade pass by."

March 18 FBI Interview

Just before he testified before the Warren Commission Norman provided a brief statement. It added little to his story. He simply stateed he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appears that he felt the shots occurred at this time. Again there was no indication that Williams had joined them at the windows just before the motorcade from the floor that the shots came from minutes later.

March 24 Warren Commission Testimony

When did they leave the front of the building to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Note that for the first time, 4 months after the shooting, he states that only he and Jarman ascended to the 5th floor.

According to Dallas police radio logs the motorcade was at Ross at 12.20 and Live Oak at 12.22. This would have placed it at Main about 12.24pm.

So I suggest the best evidence provided by Norman was that they started to go upstairs about 12.24. It took them a t least a couple of minutes to get into position. they arrived at about 12.26 or so. This might explain why neither of these two report anything about the Belknap seizure and ambulance arrival as they were on their journey around the back of the TSBD and up the elevator. Interestingly Williams fails to mention the ambulance arrival in any of his statements, I wonder why he might not mention that (time-stamped) event as it was raised by other key witnesses (Brennan and Rowland come to mind). The "final" official story has Williams descending from the sixth floor after Jarman and Norman are in position......so he vacates his position no earlier than 12.26pm.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2019, 11:30:27 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2019, 11:48:02 PM »
You seem either incapable or unwilling to appreciate the assembled information and it?s implications.

The official story is that the shots were fired from the SN at about 12.30. At that time Williams, Jarman and Norman were in the windows immediately below. About 40 minutes later Mooney finds the shells and chicken lunch remnants in the SN. This was verified by numerous police who arrived shortly after and made statements of their observations. Someone (likely Gerald Hill) moved the lunch and eventually placed the chicken piece and bones in the lunchsack. This occurred prior to the arrival of Fritz. The lunch was considered evidence and thought to belong to the assassin. This was widely reported in the media for a few days.

Williams was aware of Oswald?s arrest when he was questioned on the afternoon of the assassination. He was aware of the importance of the 6th floor (it was the reason he was taken for questioning). He deceived and lied about his movements for the duration of the investigation. Eventually he admitted he joined Jarman and Norman shortly before the shots.

Until their WC appearance Jarman and Norman maintained that Williams ascended to the 6th floor with them. Why did they continue to lie about his movements? The timing of his descent and his position in the SN is completely consistent with the essential observations of Arnold Rowland in his WC testimony.

I am not suggesting Williams was in any way part of the shooting. Just that analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

IOW...The official story is obviously BS!!     You're right Mr Crow.... Thumb1: