Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 20250 times)

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #370 on: February 12, 2019, 08:51:40 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I posted this on January 31st and have yet to see your response to the matter addressed. Let me give you another opportunity to do so;

"The salient point that proves what!!! Tell me if I'm correctly summarizing your theory;

1) According to you BRW was at one point in the SN and that Jarman and Norman were covering for BRW by claiming they all walked together to the fifth floor.

2) This coverup is supposed to have begun soon after all three were taken in for questioning.

My questions are;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

B) How does the pre-WC testimony jive with Givens testimony that he was with Jarman and Norman only...no BRW

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

C) Did BRW join Jarman and Norman after Givens left? If he did where the heck was BRW before he joined Jarman and Norman?

D) If BRW saw Oswald in the SN so what? The Dillard photo and the testimony of Jarman and Norman and that of Brennan exonarate BRW from being an accesory to the crime. I mean, why would Jarman and Norman risk themselves for being accesories to the crime by covering up for BRW if they thought he had something to do with the crime. By accesory to the crime I mean that's the only fear that would cause BRW to believe he was in any danger and needed Norman and Jarman to cover for him. It's only logical to me that if BRW had seen Oswald in the SN, even if BRW didn't see the rifle and thought Oswald was just one of the many watching the motorcade, that once he and Junior and Norman heard the shots coming from right above, that BRW would not be so stupid as to not put two and two together and tell his fifth floor buddies that he just saw Oswald were the shots came from.

F) Why would Jarman and Norman go along with covering for BRW if it was an innocent encounter?

G) Being an accesory to a murder, especially to that of the POTUS, is a pretty serious offense. Do you really believe that David Belin would have gone along with the coverup? Do you really believe that David Belin would not have brought out in the open an attempt at a cover up of any kind?"


After you have addressed the above post I'll have a better idea of what all this Three Stooges stage act is all about.

And I posted this response the same day......

"The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that."

if you are going to summarise someone?s theory at least get it right. Perhaps go back and read the original statements and work out why you think the planned deception started after they were taken in for questioning and not before.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #370 on: February 12, 2019, 08:51:40 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 2822
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #371 on: February 12, 2019, 09:32:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm not citing his book. It's from Brennan's WC testimony and from David Belin's You Are The Jury lends context.

Brennan's WC testimony is not much better than his book....  Brennan wasn't stupid....He realized immediately that there was a skunk lurking nearby when the cops took him to the police station and twisted his arm ( figuratively) to identify Lee Oswald as the man that he said that he had seen aiming a hunting rifle out of a TSBD window. They refused to allow him to say that the man was not Lee Oswald....and badgered him by asking how he could be sure the man wasn't Oswald.   Brennan replied " Well for one thing Oswald was dressed differently than the man I saw"   The man that I saw was wearing light colored khaki clothing, just as I wrote in my sworn affidavit this afternoon.... And another reason that I'm sure that Oswald isn't the man is because he's a lot skinnier than the man that I saw, that man weighed at least 165 pounds, and Oswald looks to be about 130 pounds" 

I believe that Brennan was under the illusion that the Warren Commission was truly looking for the truth, until they stated questioning him and twisting his words...He then became aware that it wasn't the DPD alone who were covering up the murder ....and the authorities had made veiled threats ( suggestions) that his family could be in danger.    Brennan took the hint.....

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 5075
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #372 on: February 12, 2019, 11:54:09 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Brennan definitely identified both Jarman and Norman. Read his testimony.

I have.

Where did you get the idea that he "definitely identified both Jarman and Norman"?

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.
Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #372 on: February 12, 2019, 11:54:09 PM »

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #373 on: February 13, 2019, 12:10:40 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have.

Where did you get the idea that he "definitely identified both Jarman and Norman"?

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.
Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.

John, please see my thread here discussing this....

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline Oscar Navarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 463
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #374 on: February 13, 2019, 12:11:52 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And I posted this response the same day......

"The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that."

if you are going to summarise someone?s theory at least get it right. Perhaps go back and read the original statements and work out why you think the planned deception started after they were taken in for questioning and not before.

Ah! So you think the Jarman, Norman and BRW coverup/deception began before they were taken in for questioning. Then I'm sure you can answer;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor
 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #374 on: February 13, 2019, 12:11:52 AM »

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #375 on: February 13, 2019, 12:33:31 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ah! So you think the Jarman, Norman and BRW coverup/deception began before they were taken in for questioning. Then I'm sure you can answer;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

Because the conflicting statements were "sorted" by Belin and Ball during their visit to Dallas just days before the WC testimonies were taken. Have you seen the Ball/Belin internal memo to Willens of March 18 (from memory)? They posed some of the same questions I have......they had access to the same statements. They were not dumb.

Offline Oscar Navarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 463
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #376 on: February 13, 2019, 12:54:58 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have.

Where did you get the idea that he "definitely identified both Jarman and Norman"?

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.
Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.

That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald. The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD. When Brennan said "I explained that to you this morning" he was referring to his opinion that he would not be able to tell blacks apart (or something to that effect) until the morning of the 22nd but Brennan did not want to repeat that in front of BRW, Jarman and Norman.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #376 on: February 13, 2019, 12:54:58 AM »

Offline Oscar Navarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Not This Member!
    Thumbs Up
    This Member Has Made
    A Forum Donation!

  • Posts: 463
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #377 on: February 13, 2019, 01:01:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Because the conflicting statements were "sorted" by Belin and Ball during their visit to Dallas just days before the WC testimonies were taken. Have you seen the Ball/Belin internal memo to Willens of March 18 (from memory)? They posed some of the same questions I have......they had access to the same statements. They were not dumb.

NSS! All the assistant counsel had access to every statement given by the witnesses and other witnesses related to the particular subject before their testimony. The purpose of the witness testimony before the WC and associate counsel was to get the full story and to question the witnesses of any inconsistencies and/or omissions.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #377 on: February 13, 2019, 01:01:14 AM »

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #378 on: February 13, 2019, 01:04:27 AM »
And where were Jarman and Norman questioned by the WC about their previous statements that indicated Williams went up with them........pfft

Online Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
  • Beware of Geeks bearing gifs.
Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #379 on: February 13, 2019, 01:06:33 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald. The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD. When Brennan said "I explained that to you this morning" he was referring to his opinion that he would not be able to tell blacks apart (or something to that effect) until the morning of the 22nd but Brennan did not want to repeat that in front of BRW, Jarman and Norman.

See here regarding his identification of the two men on the 5th floor.....

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Did the WR report rely on Brennan's ID of Oswald btw?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #379 on: February 13, 2019, 01:06:33 AM »

 

Mobile View