Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Zeon Mason]

Norman never changed his time approximation for 3 shots fired which is according to his several interviews recorded including also at the mock trial, has 3 shots fired in less than 5 seconds.

His WC testimony also states he heard the 1st shot, saw JFK "slump" and then heard the next 2 shots


Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me



so if Norman heard these 3 shots in less than 5 seconds as per his several video taped interviews as he does his boom clak clak sequence renactiment, then the 1st shot Norman is hearing and then seeing the President slump, must be the shot at Z223

[Colin Crow]

The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.

Zeno, few boxes were placed in the SN by any assassin. The majority were moved by the floor working crew in the past few days. Bonnie Ray Williams was in the SN until about 12.25. We know this because there were numerous officers who described his chicken lunch in that location. Those were the officers who arrived before Fritz. Prior to his arrival someone moved the lunch westward. We also know williams was there because Rowland described him in the SN at the same some (12.15) as a gunman in the west window.

The LN camp will attempt to discredit Rowland because his testimony and the chicken lunch puts extreme pressure on Williams. Not because he was involved in the plot but because the assembled, verified, evidence tells a different story of the crime scene immediately before the shots than they would wish you to "believe".

Here is a sequence of events.

Rowland sees a gunman on the 6th floor in the SW window.

Williams goes up to the 6th floor.

Jarman and Norman go up to the fifth.

Williams joins Norman and Jarman On the fifth.

A test for anyone.....put them in the right order and work out what time (roughly). Provide your evidence for doing so.

[Oscar Navarro]

Doesn't seem like they got the "hell from up there" in any big hurry.\:

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.
Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Resorting to just one quote to make a point is a fools errand.

From Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 Affidavit;

We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.

From Harold Norman's WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?
Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.
Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.
Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.
Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.


From James Jarman WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN - Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.
And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

Jarman sees Brennan run up to the police officer. That's who Brennan ran up to before Inspector Sawyer arrived at the scene and before Brennan sees Jarman and Norman.

From Howard Brennan's WC testimony;

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up-- from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.
Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Inspector Sawyer (Brennan confused Sorrels for Sawyer) was parked in front of the TSBD when Brennan saw Jarman and Norman coming down the front steps of the TSBD to the street. Sawyer estimates that he gave instructions for the TSBD to be sealed off sometime after 12:37 in the presence of Brennan. Soon thereafter sawyer sets up a command post across the street at the Sheriff's Office to take witness statements and Brennan is sent there by the DPD cop. By 12:45 Brennan's description goes out as an APB and is transcribed in the radio log.  BRW time estimate of 15 minutes is way off as can be seen by the statements of Norman, Jarman, Brennan, and Sawyer (see Sawyer's WC testimony).

[Oscar Navarro]

Since when is seeing "movement" evidence of anything?

Brennan does not belong in category A.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Besides Brennan never said how he knew the guy in position for the final shot (and thus blocked by boxes) was the same guy he saw earlier sitting on the window sill.  Perhaps he just assumed it.  He also never explained how how could see the guy from the belt up at the time of the last shot.

Brennan embellished his story more and more every time he told it.  Have you read his book?

Only Euins actually claimed to see a person firing a rifle, and the person he saw had a bald spot.  He also told one reporter that it was a "colored man".

Add Malcolm A. Couch to the B category.

Euins referred to the white spot as a bald spot on the head and would not say if the man was white or black in his WC testimony. This is his statement as taken down by the Sheriff's Dept. of which Euins signed https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=987&tab=page It says white man. In his WC testimony Euins said he was misinterpreted because he allegedly said he was referring to the mans bald spot only. If Euins really told the reporter that he saw a black man then he was just a very confused kid.

[Colin Crow]

Resorting to just one quote to make a point is a fools errand.

From Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 Affidavit;

We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.

From Harold Norman's WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?
Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.
Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.
Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.
Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.


From James Jarman WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN - Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.
And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

Jarman sees Brennan run up to the police officer. That's who Brennan ran up to before Inspector Sawyer arrived at the scene and before Brennan sees Jarman and Norman.

From Howard Brennan's WC testimony;

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up-- from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.
Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Inspector Sawyer (Brennan confused Sorrels for Sawyer) was parked in front of the TSBD when Brennan saw Jarman and Norman coming down the front steps of the TSBD to the street. Sawyer estimates that he gave instructions for the TSBD to be sealed off sometime after 12:37 in the presence of Brennan. Soon thereafter sawyer sets up a command post across the street at the Sheriff's Office to take witness statements and Brennan is sent there by the DPD cop. By 12:45 Brennan's description goes out as an APB and is transcribed in the radio log.  BRW time estimate of 15 minutes is way off as can be seen by the statements of Norman, Jarman, Brennan, and Sawyer (see Sawyer's WC testimony).

Like cherry picking Norman"s, 12.15 from one statement as a time for their ascent. Pot....kettle.

Bonnie Ray was not the most reliable witness regarding any placement, movement or timing was he? Wonder why. He just happened to be in the SN up until about 12.25. No pressure on him.

[Oscar Navarro]

Oscar, let's talk about interrogations.

What do you consider to be an interrogation?
How many human beings were interrogated related to the death of JFK?
Were any tape-recorded?
Were there notes taken and saved?
Were you surprised by any person who sat in an interrogation, since you were present, right?

I noticed you suggested Oswald was Walt's "commie buddy".

Since you believe Oswald was a commie, fair enough, but the government can give you a story of how they knew who LHO was except for a few hours November 22.
Some of the most paranoid people pushing the communist threat happen to distance themselves from LHO for a few hours you are first in line to agree.

I have no idea what you're trying to get at with your questions and comments.

[Oscar Navarro]

What have I not addressed? I found the primary source transcript that has a call of Main by Decker at 12.22. Yet you persist to use the 6th floor museum time of 12.21 with no reference listed. I showed that Brennan watched them remove Belknap at about 12.24. He claimed to have done this while standing. You simply dismissed this and used Brennan?s rough estimate to put him on the wall at 12.22.

Since you seem to know and believe all significant events of the day, tell me how many men Brennan described seeing on the 5th floor and who they were?

Tell me why Williams said nothing about his lunch trip to the 6th floor in his first statement. Why did he lie and say he went up with Jarman and Norman? Why did they support this initial lie for all statements until Ball and Brennan went to Dallas in March 64 to "tidy things up".

Your belief of events is not based on contemporary statements but a concoction developed by lawyers with the LN filter strongly applied. It does not even stand up to the actual statements provided by key witnesses and the irony is that the Ball/Belin fantasy explaining Williams movements did not even survive to make the Warren Report.

Colin, you're running from the contemporary statements made by Norman, Arce and Givens which give the time as 12:15 going up to the fifth floor or do not place BRW with Norman and Jarman together on the first floor. You make assumptions that there are lies by BRW, Belin and Ball without a shred of evidence. I can see by your comments there's a strong bias against the WC counsel while I don't believe that neither Belin or Ball or any other member of the counsel staff that did most of the work for the WC had any intention of anything other than getting to the truth. We're on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the integrity of the people involved so we're just going to bang heads and not get anywhere but I will not give up yet unless you refuse to address the following very simple questions;

A) Who's chicken lunch, Fritos, Dr. Pepper bottle and lunchbag was it if not that of BRW?

B) Taking Arce's and Given's testimony that BRW was not with Jarman and Norman where the heck was BRW if not having his lunch at the 6th floor of the TSBD just as he claimed in his WC testimony?

[Oscar Navarro]

The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.

The boxes that made the SN were already there before LHO got there. They were being moved by the floor laying crew from the west side of the 6th floor to the east side as they worked their way eastward. The only boxes LHO moved were the light Rolling readers boxes used as a gun rest and two of the larger boxes, possibly one used as a seat where Oswald's fresh palmprint was found and the other that was against the wall under the window used to support a Rolling Reader box. That SN was probably used as a convenient hiding place by the floor laying crew and Oswald took advantage of it's discreet location to use it for a SN.

Oswald had plenty of time to move the boxes and adjust the window before BRW, Jarman and Norman arrived on the 6th and fifth floors as the last time anyone saw Oswald was at around 11:50 AM by Givens. As to the sounds BRW heard Jarman and Norman opening windows from a floor above but did not hear either the three shells drop or the movement of the bolt but it was clear that the sounds of the empty cartriges and the movement of the bolt could be heard from the fifth floor from Norman's position as tests proved.