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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 70648 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2019, 05:07:22 PM »
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Brennan could have based his description due to the loud sound made by the discharge, i.e., high powered rifle. Brennan never said it was a 30.30 Winchester so that description could have come from Sawyer's interpretation of what Brennan said or from another witness who might have identified the rifle as a 30.30 Winchester. That's a repeating rifle and some witnesses thought they heard rapid shots.

That's a repeating rifle and some witnesses thought they heard rapid shots.

Thank you for admitting that the Carcano was a slow operating rifle....   By comparing it to a Winchester 30.30  which you clearly believe is a rapid fire weapon....

And you're absolutely right....Many of the witnesses who heard the shots thought the that the weapon being fired was an AUTOMATIC ...because the shots were so closely spaced.....  They most certainly were NOT describing a Mannlicher Carcano being fired.....

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2019, 05:07:22 PM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2019, 05:21:29 PM »
That's a repeating rifle and some witnesses thought they heard rapid shots.

Thank you for admitting that the Carcano was a slow operating rifle....   By comparing it to a Winchester 30.30  which you clearly believe is a rapid fire weapon....

And you're absolutely right....Many of the witnesses who heard the shots thought the that the weapon being fired was an AUTOMATIC ...because the shots were so closely spaced.....  They most certainly were NOT describing a Mannlicher Carcano being fired.....

I associate the 30.30. Winchester as a lever action rifle therefore I used repeating rifle. Perhaps it's the wrong way to associate lever action with repeating rifle so let's say that a lever action rifle is much faster than a bolt action rifle. There's also a multiple sound factor to consider when a rifle is discharged so some ear witnesses could have confused the multiple sound effect (and echoes) with that of a rapid fire weapon.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2019, 05:34:17 PM »
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. One of the boxes (the one closest to the viewer) marked by Mooney on CE-513 formed part of the west wall of the SN. below is the view of the SN as seen looking from N to S. It is to the right (or West) of the area shown in CE-508 that BRW had lunch. BRW could have just walked over to the boxes forming the SN, looked inside, and seeing no one placed the chicken bone and the lunch bag on top of the box.



I don't know. It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339010/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49643/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2019, 05:34:17 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2019, 05:47:49 PM »
I don't know. It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339010/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49643/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/

It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

No doubt about it.... The boxes closest to the viewer DID NOT create the west wall of the tiny nook that is known as the "Sniper's Nest"

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2019, 07:57:42 PM »
I don't know. It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339010/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49643/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/

OK, substitute West with North. Doesn't change BRW access to the box from outside the SN. 

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2019, 07:57:42 PM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2019, 09:42:57 PM »
OK, substitute West with North. Doesn't change BRW access to the box from outside the SN.

Yup. Definitely outside the SN.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2019, 02:06:48 AM »
Yup. Definitely outside the SN.

Please define what constitutes the SN so we can progress discussion further.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2019, 02:06:48 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2019, 03:57:45 AM »
In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. He stated that the shots came from above. He was brought in for questioning because he was identified as someone who had earlier worked on that floor. Obviously by 2 pm he was aware the 6th floor was a "spot of keen interest" to the police yet does not mention that he had been there. His statement simply states that after leaving the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?. They were there only a short time before the shooting.

So on day one his story is simply, went down with the flooring crew about 11.50pm to have lunch and then went with Jarman and Norman to the 5th floor just before the shooting.

He also knew Oswald was in police custody at this time. Highlighting the police focus on the prime suspect following his arrest, Williams states he had not seen Oswald since 8 am that morning. About the time Williams was released from the DPD his chicken lunch and Dr Pepper bottle arrived at the Police Department via Officer Marvin Johnson as part of the evidence recovered from the 6th floor crime scene. It was also around this time that the WFAA-TV news report linked the lunch and pop bottle to the assassin.

Carl Day eventually admitted in his WC testimony that he eventually established the ownership of the lunch until 3 days later.
Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Note that the other TSBD employees were not fingerprinted until June 1964 two months after Day testified.

Saturday, the day after the assassination, Williams was visited by FBI Agents Odum and Griffin and a statement prepared following his interview with them. Just a day after the assassination the only people who would be aware of a gunman on the 6th floor of the TSBD as early as 12.15pm the day before would be the assassin (s), Arnold Rowland and his wife, Roger Craig and the few police and officials who were involved with taking Rowland's statement (or were subsequently informed) and Rosemary Allen (the notary who signed his statement). Another person who might have known was the man who Rowland claimed in his WC testimony to have observed in the SN prior to 12.15 until about 12.25 pm.

Williams now provided significant alterations and additions to his statement given just the day before to the DPD. He moved the time for the descent in the elevator race, shifting it 20 minutes earlier than the time he stated just the day before to, 11.30am. However, the men did in fact break for lunch about 11.50am as he initially stated. In addition, he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn?t remember this sighting at all.

Significantly, he now told of a lunch trip to the 6th floor prior to the shooting. There were no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He simply claimed he went back upstairs half an hour later, about 12. If we apply a 30 minute time shift correction this actually occurred about 12.20 pm. His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch! So now the story is that he did not go to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman but went, albeit briefly to the 6th floor, before joining them on the floor below. Williams says this was half an hour after the elevator race, arrives at noon and is gone by about 12.03 pm. However, if we add the 30 minute time shift, it becomes; arrives on the 6th floor at 12.20pm, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.23pm.  By moving the elevator race 20 minutes earlier I believe he is attempting to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor after 12.15 onwards?

Williams is clearly aware of the significance of the SE corner of the building as he makes specific reference to it and that he observed no one there that morning before the descent at 11.30 am (he mentions that time again, just to reinforce!) He would not be able to see the corner while working that morning because of the arrangement of boxes there. However he said that he did go to the windows in his brief lunchtime visit but did not notice anyone standing at the windows. The implication being that Williams was standing at the windows and that maybe the assassin was sitting in the SN but would be hidden from view. This later would evolve into Williams sitting and eating his lunch and the sitting assassin not visible from that position.

On day two, after the widespread announcements about the assassins chicken lunch, Williams changed his story to, being on the 6th floor about noon, walking to the windows, staying briefly, then joining Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor about 12.05pm. It would also mean that Jarman and Norman ascended just after noon.

Before we move on would appreciate and significant disagreements with this analysis.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 04:17:37 AM by Colin Crow »