Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Ben Beeching]

Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben

[Walt Cakebread]

Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben,.... And welcome to the circus .....

when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Nobody could have traveled from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the 2nd floor Lunchroom in the time allotted for the feat by the cover up committee.....And please be advised that the rifle was NOT hastily tossed aside as The cover up committee proposed....The rifle had been carefully hidden beneath a pallet of heavy boxes of books that was unreachable from the aisle at the top of the stairs.

My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past?

IMO Lee thought he was participating in a ruse ( hoax) in which it would appear that he had taken a shot at JFK and missed . (This the basic same hoax MO that he was involved in at General Walker's house in April of 1963)  He was lead to believe that Castro would welcome him to Cuba if he had tried to kill an enemy of Castro.   Thus he would be able to spy on Cuba. 

He stayed inside out of sight where no camera could record him doing something innocuous at the time he was supposed to be shooting at JFK....
If such a photo were taken it would have been his ticket to Castro's firing squad if the photo were seen by Castro.

Lee told his interrogators that he was on the first floor at the time that JFK passed by the tSBD and he went to the second floor for a coke and that's where he was when Officer Baker and Roy Truly encountered him.....


Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

Because he thought that he was fleeing to Cuba...as a fugitive who had taken a shot at JFK.

[Royell Storing]

   Those of us that have worked a minimum wage/dead end job know you exit stage left whenever possible. Nothing suspicious regarding Oswald taking that action.  The people that worked with him were in agreement that Oswald kept to himself. This makes him being alone inside the lunchroom consistent with that general assessment. What does cast suspicion in his direction is his going back to his boarding room and Allegedly arming himself with a hand gun.  If true, this displays his knowing that he was in the Jackpot.

[Walt Cakebread]

   Those of us that have worked a minimum wage/dead end job know you exit stage left whenever possible. Nothing suspicious regarding Oswald taking that action.  The people that worked with him were in agreement that Oswald kept to himself. This makes him being alone inside the lunchroom consistent with that general assessment. What does cast suspicion in his direction is his going back to his boarding room and Allegedly arming himself with a hand gun.  If true, this displays his knowing that he was in the Jackpot.

I don't believe that Lee picked up that revolver in his boardinghouse room.....I believe that he was given the revolver after he arrived in the Theater....

[Ben Beeching]

Thanks guys, really good points and interesting. I had also given some thought to the angle that he had somehow been given instructions to remain inside in the lunch room, but couldn't quite put a finger on why. Matthew Smith's "The Second Plot" neatly ties the evidence of the framing operation as well as the actual assassination together, but I didn't quite feel that he nailed it with regards to why Lee was in the lunch room.

The fake shot operation angle is a good one and I'd not thought of it in relation to the Walker angle before. This could all tie in with the "curtain rails" episode as well, as well as creating Fraser as an alibi that Lee was carrying a long package into work.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down. And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway. But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.

[Ben Beeching]

I've often thought that as well actually - and the fact he brushed past Mrs Roberts and she only saw him from the back could also suggest to me it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house, and that Lee had gone straight to the theatre after leaving the TSBD. For me, that scenario also explains the police car with "the 1 and the 0" beeping the horn outside to draw attention to itself and attempt to link Oswald with Tippit

[Royell Storing]

I've often thought that as well actually - and the fact he brushed past Mrs Roberts and she only saw him from the back could also suggest to me it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house, and that Lee had gone straight to the theatre after leaving the TSBD. For me, that scenario also explains the police car with "the 1 and the 0" beeping the horn outside to draw attention to itself and attempt to link Oswald with Tippit

    When those actively participating in an alleged "conspiracy" begins to approach the population of a small town You need to tap the brakes.

[Martin Weidmann]

I've often thought that as well actually - and the fact he brushed past Mrs Roberts and she only saw him from the back could also suggest to me it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house, and that Lee had gone straight to the theatre after leaving the TSBD. For me, that scenario also explains the police car with "the 1 and the 0" beeping the horn outside to draw attention to itself and attempt to link Oswald with Tippit

it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house,

This seems far fetched to me as there were more people living in the rooming house. An impersonator could not have have known just how many people were there and the risk of getting caught would simply have been too great. Also, how would an impersonator know where Oswald's room was?

Besides, Oswald confirmed to his interrogators that he went to the rooming house to change his clothes. If you argue that Oswald went directly to the Texas Theater you also implicitely argue that he was wearing the same shirt in the morning.

[Walt Cakebread]

Thanks guys, really good points and interesting. I had also given some thought to the angle that he had somehow been given instructions to remain inside in the lunch room, but couldn't quite put a finger on why. Matthew Smith's "The Second Plot" neatly ties the evidence of the framing operation as well as the actual assassination together, but I didn't quite feel that he nailed it with regards to why Lee was in the lunch room.

The fake shot operation angle is a good one and I'd not thought of it in relation to the Walker angle before. This could all tie in with the "curtain rails" episode as well, as well as creating Fraser as an alibi that Lee was carrying a long package into work.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down. And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway. But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down.

Be alert....  You seem to be referring to the official photos that show the rifle inserted between the boxes that made up the south side of the aisle at the top of the stairs, and sme boxes immediately south of that aisle row of boxes....Those photos that show the rifle inserted between boxes are NOT authentic photos.... They are photos that were taken of the "re- created crime scene". And I'm not sure that there was actually a rifle in the photo when the shutter was snapped....  I suspect that the rifle that APPEARS to be between the boxes was actually put there photographically.  ( With the phones now available, kids perform this trick everyday)  Luckily there was a reporter named Tom Alyea who managed to film the rifle as Lt Day picked it up from THE FLOOR and his film recorded the rifle lying on it's right side with the barrel pointing east and the leather sling up.

Detective Robert Studebaker made many accurate measurements to record various evidence on the six floor.   Studebaker recorded that the rifle was lying on the floor with the barrel pointing east and the butt of the rifle about four feet from the west wall of the building.  Stubaker recorded that the rifle was 15 feet 4 inches from the north wall of the building ( The rifle was about 8 feet from the top of the stairs in the NW corner of the building)   Studebaker recorded that the floor support pillars between floors,  were 12 feet from the north wall of the building.   

The rifle was on the floor beneath a pallet of boxes of books about thee feet south of the floor support pillar...IOW the rifle was about five feet from the aisle ( which was formed by the row of book boxes) Any person who would have been in the aisle and who would attempt to place an eight pound rifle on the floor beneath a pallet of book boxes would have to be about ten feet tall..... 

What I have posted is FACTUAL information... and it utterly destroys the official lie  that has Lee Oswald dashing through the area and hastily dumping the rifle as he fled.   


 And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway.
But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.

I believe the rifle was carefully hidden there beneath those boxes of books after the work crew left the area and went to lunch....

You may recall that Marina said that Lee told her that he hid the rifle beneath some brush when he fired a bullet through Walker's window....

The idea behind his action was to gain enough time to escape to Cuba by way of Mexico.....He thought that tracking dogs would sniff out the rifle and then it would take a couple of days to trace the rifle to him...and by that time he would be out of the country and on his way to Cuba, to fulfill his spy mission for the US.

[Alan Hardaker]

Hi Ben,.... And welcome to the circus .....

when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Nobody could have traveled from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the 2nd floor Lunchroom in the time allotted for the feat by the cover up committee.....And please be advised that the rifle was NOT hastily tossed aside as The cover up committee proposed....The rifle had been carefully hidden beneath a pallet of heavy boxes of books that was unreachable from the aisle at the top of the stairs.

My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past?

IMO Lee thought he was participating in a ruse ( hoax) in which it would appear that he had taken a shot at JFK and missed . (This the basic same hoax MO that he was involved in at General Walker's house in April of 1963)  He was lead to believe that Castro would welcome him to Cuba if he had tried to kill an enemy of Castro.   Thus he would be able to spy on Cuba. 

He stayed inside out of sight where no camera could record him doing something innocuous at the time he was supposed to be shooting at JFK....
If such a photo were taken it would have been his ticket to Castro's firing squad if the photo were seen by Castro.

Lee told his interrogators that he was on the first floor at the time that JFK passed by the tSBD and he went to the second floor for a coke and that's where he was when Officer Baker and Roy Truly encountered him.....


Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

Because he thought that he was fleeing to Cuba...as a fugitive who had taken a shot at JFK.

Can't seriously think anyone can accept this. I mean it's just blatant guesswork. And I think there was almost 2 minutes between the fatal head shot and the meet between Baker,Truly and the gunman. So the gunman had enough time to get from the 6th to the 2nd and as the gunman was reasonable fit, he was able to appear reasonable calm.

Really have to have a more credible explanation.