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Author Topic: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?  (Read 12221 times)

Online John Anderson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #640 on: February 14, 2018, 08:18:31 PM »
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John, in one of the photos showing Montgomery carrying the bag, a watch can be seen on the wrist of one of the other officers. By zooming in on it you can make out the time.

Seriously? I can't find that.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #640 on: February 14, 2018, 08:18:31 PM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #641 on: February 14, 2018, 08:32:11 PM »
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Seriously? I can't find that.

The watch might be Montgomery's. I'll see if I can find the photo.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #642 on: February 14, 2018, 08:37:52 PM »
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Seriously? I can't find that.

I believe that this is the one:

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Click on it then copy it and paste it in Paint or some other. Zoom in on the watch and you'll see that one hand is at the 3 position and the other is at the 12.

Online John Anderson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #643 on: February 14, 2018, 08:59:20 PM »
Thanks. It's pretty foggy but does indeed look to be showing 3 o'clock.

Online Gary Craig

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #644 on: February 14, 2018, 09:18:14 PM »
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I believe that this is the one:

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Click on it then copy it and paste it in Paint or some other. Zoom in on the watch and you'll see that one hand is at the 3 position and the other is at the 12.

 ::)



« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:25:59 PM by Gary Craig »

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #644 on: February 14, 2018, 09:18:14 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #645 on: February 14, 2018, 10:37:04 PM »
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All you have are the words of Fruge and Weiss, given after Cherami was dead.

Just like I said.  The word of a cop is good enough for Bill.  Except when it isn't.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #646 on: February 14, 2018, 10:48:42 PM »
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The problem is there were people who seen the bag before the rifle was found.

Who?

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #647 on: February 15, 2018, 12:52:14 AM »
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Bill,

Rose Cherami for one.

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Quote
Marita Lorenz for another.

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"Mark Lane was taken in by Marita Lorenz. Oh God, we spent a lot of time with Marita...It was hard to ignore her because she gave us so much crap, and we tried to verify it, but let me tell you - she is full of shit. Between her and Frank Sturgis, we must have spent over one hundred hours. They were dead ends...Marita is not credible." -- Edwin Lopez, quoted by Gerald Posner in "Case Closed"

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #647 on: February 15, 2018, 12:52:14 AM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #648 on: February 15, 2018, 12:53:38 AM »
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You and Collin agreeing is a foregone conclusion, you are like Siamese twins only joined at the keyboard. Actually it is somewhat like a comedy routine because in the end nothing is proven just suggested followed by a punchline. Now you two have agreed with a portion of what Johnson said but isnít he going to be accused of covering up something else?

Collin:
"Day then realises that he needs to take the rifle to the crime lab to further process. At that stage he and Studebaker leave for the first floor with the rifle and the bag. Presumably to take the "evidence" to HQ. Day then notices the tape is the same as that on the bag and decides to get samples."

You keep agreeing with Collin that the bag was found on the 6th floor by Montgomery so why the thread?

March 26th 2015
CC. The roughly 2 foot long package is thought by Johnson and Montgomery to be the package the rifle was transported in. They had not seen the rifle as they had not left the southeast corner of the sixth floor. The rifle was discovered in the northwest corner. Their speculation was that the rifle could fit in a 2 foot package and thought it worth saving. Did Montgomery find it in a more secluded place in the SN and after realizing it might be important decided to place it folded once in the SE corner near the pipes? Now ready to be "discovered" by Studebaker upon his eventual return to the SN.

Tony: "my analysis of the same events is confirmed by your analysis"



The problem is there were people who seen the bag before the rifle was found. Not mentioning seeing the bag is not the same as stating there was not a bag. Alternating between a witness telling the truth to support the theory and then stating the same witness is lying to support another theory.

Isnít that the hallmark of this theory, picking and choosing statements to fit a purpose?  Like Hill never seeing the bag but he is accused of having purposely moved the chicken. Alyea doesnít film the bag but he states the chicken is found on the 5th floor. Completely ignore Montgomery stating there was two locations for a piece of chicken and Shelley stating he seen Givens eating chicken in that area in the morning. Mooney completely misplaces the location of the piece of chicken on the rifle rest but not seeing the bag is quoted.

Truly nor any of the police or witnesses in the wrapping room mention seeing the police take the rifle and make a bag. There is not one witness anywhere in the theory that specifically states the bag wasnít in the SN, they make a statement and do not mention having seen a bag. Not seeing the bag is not the same as the bag was definitely not there.

In this ever changing theory the whole question posed is did they really find a bag on the 6th floor or did DPD conspire to make a bag not knowing one was seen by BWF and LMR? Both you and Collin have stated they found the bag in the SN. Whatever is the point of the thread? BWF and LMR seen LHO with a long package in the morning. LHO is seen carrying a long package into the TSBD. A rifle is found on the 6th floor that can be traced to LHO and is matched to the bullet, bullet fragments, and shells. A bag is found in the SN with LHOís finger prints. It is not very complicated only made to appear to be.

That's the impression I got when I read parts of the WR - you too?

Oh and just for you:

Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down- -because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Mr. JARMAN - Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I run over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.

Representative FORD - You distinctly recall three shots?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. ARCE. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. BAKER. Three.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. GIVENS. Three.

Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?
Miss HINE. Three.

Mrs. REID. Well, when I heard--I heard three shots.

Mr. SHIELDS. I said, "The President has been shot"; we walked back to the lot and where Tracey was. I heard one shot and then a pause and then this repetition--two shots right behind the other, and I thought it was backfire from a car and I said, "Someone shot the President."

Mr. BELIN - How many shots did you hear?
Mr. BAKER - Three.

Mr. BARNETT - We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for people throwing stuff from the crowd at he President's party, to keep the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. Then when the President came by, I heard three shots.

Mr. BOONE - Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the shots. The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the street there.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.

for starters, because there are many more Jack "two shot" Nessan

and you think my hypothesis has issues?

« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 12:55:12 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Pat Speer

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #649 on: February 15, 2018, 01:04:31 AM »
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Pat, your criticism of Day is based on his testimony given six months after the fact. You are using his faulty memory to not only question his competence as a crime investigation but to cast doubt on his personal integrity as well. It's an unfair approach but it's one that you seem to prefer. I don't know why. Perhaps you feel it helps to endear you to the more hardcore believers in conspiracy. To me, and many others I'm sure, it takes away from your more serious and indepth research on Kennedy's head wounds. Your paper on the skull X-rays (Chapter 18 of your book)) is a fine piece of work. Truly top-notch. But in recommending it or any of your offerings to others I'd have to warn them that you can be a bit of an Asshole. It's a shame really.

My criticism of Day is based on a number of things beyond his inaccurate testimony. It smells to high heaven, for example, that his earliest report on the assassination is dated 1-8-64, six weeks after the shooting. And this even though the DPD's guidelines held that he and his team were supposed to write daily and weekly reports. I mean, what happened to these reports?

Let me also state that I have no personal animosity towards Day. I've watched his oral histories, and he seems to be a gentle man.

But he was also a cop. And cops are not above bending the rules if it helps them catch a bad guy. While the definition of bad guy is subjective, it would undoubtedly include a purported commie wife-beater and cop-killer.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #649 on: February 15, 2018, 01:04:31 AM »