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Author Topic: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?  (Read 32575 times)

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #600 on: February 13, 2018, 10:44:37 PM »
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Tony,

You and Colin have done some extraordinary work on these two important issues. Knowing what was going on on the 6th floor after 12 o'clock on 11/22/63 and sorting out the facts and details of CE 142 bring clarity and perspective on these points which have been murky and convoluted to me for 40 years. Thank you both for your work here.

Many thanks Lloyd......appreciated.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #600 on: February 13, 2018, 10:44:37 PM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #601 on: February 13, 2018, 10:48:46 PM »
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For Tony.....


Mr. BELIN. How did you get the tape from out of the machine, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. Just pulled the tape off and tear it out and tear it off.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a lever at all that you used, if you remember if there is such a lever?
Mr. DAY. I don't remember. I don't think we used the lever.


Mr. STOMBAUGH. I found--according to my drawing--two machine-cut edges.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would that indicate---well, do you form any opinion as to, on the basis of that, as to the origin, possible origin, of the tape?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. The origin of the tape as far as the manufacturer----
Mr. EISENBERG. What I am referring to is this: on the basis of that would you draw an inference that the person had taken---whoever made this bag---had taken two lengths of tape from a dispensing machine and had subsequently torn it up into smaller strips, or do you think he had one length of tape from a dispensing machine which he subsequently tore up into smaller strips?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. From the ends that I could see, now I don't know whether there were any ends underneath which I did not have a chance to look at, I don't have anything in my notes, but from what I can see it would appear he took a strip of tape, machine-cut from a dispenser, and used that entire strip, thus using up both ends of the tape because we have two machine--cut ends.
Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, it would be a machine-cut strip at the beginning of the tape which the person pulled out, left over from the last cut?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. And a machine-cut at the end, where the person himself ripped the tape from the machine?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct.
Mr. EISENBERG. And you infer that he then divided it into smaller strips on the occasion when he made the bag?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; he pulled one strip, of course, he could have pulled two or three strips, I don't know, but it would appear he took one strip of tape and tore it into smaller pieces to be used on the bag.

Colin,

who ever pulled the one long piece of tape from the dispenser to construct CE 142 did not use the lever to custom cut the tape but instead had torn the tape into smaller pieces by hand.

The extra tape pieces were placed onto the paper bag as can be seen here.

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Lt Day confirmed that Studebaker took one long piece of tape from the dispenser otherwise he would have remembered using the lever.

LHO having worked in the first floor may have seen how the tape dispensers were used, whereas it was likely that Studebaker had not used these dispensers before.

What is your take on it Colin?


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #602 on: February 13, 2018, 11:17:56 PM »
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Did Day and Studebaker leave the 6th floor with CE139 and CE142 just before 2pm?


Mr. BELIN. What else did you do, or what was the next thing you did after you completed photographing and inspecting the rifle on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building for whatever prints you could find, what did you do next?

Mr. DAY. I took the gun at the time to the office and locked it up in a box in my office at Captain Fritz' direction.


Tim,

this was EXACTLY what should have been done, but instead both Lt Day and Detective Studebaker first stop off at the shipping room and started collecting non-evidence. Lt Day - who always had CE 139 in his possession - left CE 142 behind with Detective Studebaker as he took CE 139 "to the office".

All of this is documented in my OP.

In fact that is what piqued my curiosity - why did both men stop off in the first floor wrapping room if they already had CE 142 and CE 139 with them?

We know they were both there because Lt Day handed in CE 677 to Drain on the night of 22/11/1963 and

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get the kind of sample used at the School Book Depository?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, I had the bag listed as----
Mr. BELIN. Commission Exhibit 626 or 142.
Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape was of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.

It meant that Lt Day "took CE 142" to the wrapping table while holding CE 139.

My hypothesis was that never occurred - CE 142 wasnt taken to the wrapping table - it was constructed in situ by Detective Studebaker while Lt Day held CE 139 at the wrapping table.

Explained why it was left behind because it was non crime scene evidence.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:27:24 PM by Tony Fratini »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #603 on: February 14, 2018, 01:11:11 AM »
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Thanks for at least replying Tim. Day had the gun in his possession the whole time after itís discovery until about 2 pm when he left the building. He arrived back at the building at around 2.45.  Now read his testimony about collecting the paper samples from the first floor.

Ok, done. Now what?

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #604 on: February 14, 2018, 01:15:21 AM »
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Tim,

this was EXACTLY what should have been done, but instead both Lt Day and Detective Studebaker first stop off at the shipping room and started collecting non-evidence. Lt Day - who always had CE 139 in his possession - left CE 142 behind with Detective Studebaker as he took CE 139 "to the office".

All of this is documented in my OP.

In fact that is what piqued my curiosity - why did both men stop off in the first floor wrapping room if they already had CE 142 and CE 139 with them?

We know they were both there because Lt Day handed in CE 677 to Drain on the night of 22/11/1963 and

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get the kind of sample used at the School Book Depository?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, I had the bag listed as----
Mr. BELIN. Commission Exhibit 626 or 142.
Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape was of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.

It meant that Lt Day "took CE 142" to the wrapping table while holding CE 139.

My hypothesis was that never occurred - CE 142 wasnt taken to the wrapping table - it was constructed in situ by Detective Studebaker while Lt Day held CE 139 at the wrapping table.

Explained why it was left behind because it was non crime scene evidence.

Sorry Tony, but I still don't see how you've concluded that Day "took CE 142" to the wrapping table while holding CE 139. Maybe somebody else can explain it for me.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #604 on: February 14, 2018, 01:15:21 AM »


Online Colin Crow

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #605 on: February 14, 2018, 02:39:56 AM »
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Ok, done. Now what?

What is your understanding of the sequence of events from Day leaving the 6th floor with CE139 to exiting the front steps with it?

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #606 on: February 14, 2018, 03:02:38 AM »
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Sorry Tony, but I still don't see how you've concluded that Day "took CE 142" to the wrapping table while holding CE 139. Maybe somebody else can explain it for me.

Step 1 - Lt Day took CE 142 to the wrapping table

Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape was of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.

Step 2 - paper and tape are removed

Mr. BELIN. Does that represent the location on the first floor of the School Book Depository Building where you got the tape sample, Commission Exhibit 677?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it is approximately the same. I do not think the benches had been changed since the November shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize at any point on any of the exhibits the actual tape machine that was used?
Mr. DAY. The one that we removed this from was the north roll and tape on the east side of the bench.

this was where Detective Studebaker constructs the paper bag (CE 142)

Step 3 - Lt Day leaves CE 142 with Detective Studebaker

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you?
Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.
Mr. BELIN. By this you are referring to the bag itself?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Hicks btw never saw CE 142

Lt Day left the TSBD at ~2.00 pm with CE 139 but not with CE 142.

CE 142 was photographed at 3 pm outside the TSBD

Mr. BELIN. What else did you do, or what was the next thing you did after you completed photographing and inspecting the rifle on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building for whatever prints you could find, what did you do next?

Lt Day and Detective Studebaker went directly to the first floor shipping room.

Mr. DAY. I took the gun at the time to the office and locked it up in a box in my office at Captain Fritz' direction.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. DAY. I went back to the School Book Depository and stayed there. It was around three that I got back, and I was in that building until about 6, directing the other officers as to what we needed in the way of photographs and some drawing, and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back, what photographs did you take?
Mr. DAY. We went, made the outside photographs of the street, we made more photographs inside, and did further checking for prints by using dust on the boxes around the window.

Note - no mention of going to the first floor shipping room

Hence if Lt Day "took the bag" to the wrapping table it had to have been before he took the rifle to City Hall at 2.00 pm otherwise he could not have "left it" with Detective Studebaker since Lt Day remained at the TSBD until 6 pm.

Mr Truly saw Lt. Day walk out the front door of the TSBD with CE 139.

So we have - Lt Day, Detective Studebaker, CE 142 and CE 139 all in the first floor wrapping room - together where the paper and tape rolls were that constructed CE 142. The last person who had their hands on the paper and tape that CE 142 was made from was Detective Studebaker.

CE 677 was forensically proven by the FBI to be the same paper and tape that CE 142 was constructed from.



« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 03:05:28 AM by Tony Fratini »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #607 on: February 14, 2018, 03:06:05 AM »
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What is your understanding of the sequence of events from Day leaving the 6th floor with CE139 to exiting the front steps with it?

Day doesn't tell us exactly. Or does he? We can only assume that he took the stairs , or an elevator, down and exited the building.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #607 on: February 14, 2018, 03:06:05 AM »


Online Colin Crow

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #608 on: February 14, 2018, 03:09:01 AM »
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Day doesn't tell us exactly. Or does he? We can only assume that he took the stairs , or an elevator, down and exited the building.

When does he notice the tape and compare to CE142?

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #609 on: February 14, 2018, 03:12:20 AM »
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Day doesn't tell us exactly. Or does he? We can only assume that he took the stairs , or an elevator, down and exited the building.

Lt Day avoided mentioning the trip to the first floor shipping room with Detective Studebaker with CE 142 until he was asked to explain CE 677.




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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #609 on: February 14, 2018, 03:12:20 AM »