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Author Topic: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?  (Read 66551 times)

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1490 on: March 29, 2018, 03:09:51 PM »
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Excellent point Tim, and why can no CT explain why Oswald would lie about the package?

In fact whenever Oswald was questioned about the rifle evidence, he lied.

1. The backyard photos were faked.
2. The Neely street address was omitted
3. His package in Frazier's car was on the back seat.
4. His lunch in Frazier's car was on his lap.
5. He denied owning the rifle.
6. etc etc...

JohnM

whenever Oswald was questioned about the rifle evidence, he lied.

 The backyard photos were faked.

You lie Mytton..... The police showed Lee only ONE BY photo....  Lee told them that photo was a fake....

2. The Neely street address was omitted
3. His package in Frazier's car was on the back seat.
4. His lunch in Frazier's car was on his lap.
5. He denied owning the rifle.
6. etc etc...

Let's see you prove that Lee lied about any of the items you listed....

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1490 on: March 29, 2018, 03:09:51 PM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1491 on: April 02, 2018, 03:39:53 AM »
Ross said

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Tony... I'm just saying that it's unremarkable that nobody saw Oswald:

-- Take the paper from the shipping area (or construct the bag right there).

-- Transport the paper from the TSBD to the Paine's residence in Irving.

-- Construct the paper bag in the garage at the Paine's residence.

-- Pass Dougherty on the way to the freight elevator without this co-worker seeing the bag.

Some or all of these factors in the construction and transportation of the paper bag being unseen may seem very unlikely. However, all are within the realm of possibility. Insisting that Oswald must be seen taking the materials, constructing the paper bag and carrying it past co-worker Doherty is just an assertion. Oswald "was" seen carrying the paper bag into the TSBD by Buell Wesley Frazier. That was virtually unavoidable. The unseen events were an example of happenstance. It "happens" all the time.   

Incidentally: How did a subject questioning "Why did Oswald going to the movies" morph into one about "the paper bag".

Ross,

why do you have to be reliant with at least 4 levels of speculative events when the obvious and most straight forward answer was that Lee did none of what you are stating he did concerning CE 142?

Have you ever considered that option?

 Oswald "was" seen carrying the paper bag into the TSBD by Buell Wesley Frazier.

It was that direct observation by BWF that completely demolishes your speculative account of what Lee did with CE 142.

BWF saw Lee place the paper bag tucked under his armpit and cupped in his right palm. He told and demonstrated this for Mr Ball in 1964.

Neither BWF nor his sister LMR ever IDed CE 142.

So now you are reliant not only on multiple speculative events but that the only two people on the planet who saw Lee with a paper bag being grossly in error.

Using that reasoning you can accuse anyone of having done anything you want without the burden of proof.

Would you be ok with that reasoning on yourself or members of your own family?

Don't forget there was no in situ photo of CE 142 nor was it ever documented on any map of the SN.





Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1492 on: April 14, 2018, 10:09:54 AM »
Buell, bag, rifle, ... Rob Clark reviewing the pro & con arguments for Oswald carrying a rifle:

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The real kicker is that the WC/FBI/SS collectively provided ZERO evidence of how Oswald transported himself to and from the TSBD when he was not in Irving. Especially since, as Clark explains, there were plenty of leads suggesting Frazier dropped him off every morning. Not a single bus ticket left somewhere in his clothes or belongings were found (of cause except the one allegedly pulled out of his arrest shirt.)

To me the obvious explanation is that those leads were so creditable that they might destroy the Lone Nut scenario showing that Frazier was firmly hookup with Oswald. Not finding a single bus driver or passenger remembering Oswald traveling out of Oak Cliff would be poison to the WC's preconceived conclusion. 

 

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1493 on: April 14, 2018, 11:49:34 AM »
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Buell, bag, rifle, ... Rob Clark reviewing the pro & con arguments for Oswald carrying a rifle:

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The real kicker is that the WC/FBI/SS collectively provided ZERO evidence of how Oswald transported himself to and from the TSBD when he was not in Irving. Especially since, as Clark explains, there were plenty of leads suggesting Frazier dropped him off every morning. Not a single bus ticket left somewhere in his clothes or belongings were found (of cause except the one allegedly pulled out of his arrest shirt.)

To me the obvious explanation is that those leads
were so creditable that they might destroy the Lone Nut scenario showing that Frazier was firmly hookup with Oswald. Not finding a single bus driver or passenger remembering Oswald traveling out of Oak Cliff would be poison to the WC's preconceived conclusion.

Thankyou for posting Tom. Having a listen now.

Interesting that he considered that BWF may have lied about the paper bag and the curtain rod story.

He also considered the possibility that CE 142 was "planted" by the DP.

Very good summation about Victoria Adams as well.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 01:11:16 PM by Tony Fratini »

Offline Mark Valenti

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1494 on: April 14, 2018, 07:16:25 PM »
From Anthony Summers:

On December 4, 1963, an undeliverable package addressed to "Lee Oswald" was retrieved from the dead-letter section to a post office in a Dallas suburb.  It was wrongly addressed to 601 W. Nassaus Street, which could approximate to Neches Street, which was near where Oswald had lived. When opened, it turned out to contain a "brown paper bag. . . ."  Since no postal worker is likely to have tossed aside a package addressed to "Lee Oswald" AFTER the name became world famous on November 22, it is reasonable to assume the parcel arrived before the assassination.  Who sent it to Oswald, and why, are questions which appear especially pertinent with the knowledge that another paper bag became key evidence. But the Warren Report did not even mention the mystery parcel, and there is no sign that it was forensically tested or further investigated. (CONSPIRACY, Paragon House Edition, pp. 71-72, original emphasis)


If the discussion centers around how someone could come into possession of a paper bag without making it themselves, it could have arrived via the trusty Post Office.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1494 on: April 14, 2018, 07:16:25 PM »


Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1495 on: April 14, 2018, 07:39:26 PM »
I see that Rob Caprio stated that Oswald registered the PO box in which he is purported to have received the rifle Though this particular site there is no evidence that we even know what name the PO box is registered The world of the no verifiable facts marches

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Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1496 on: April 15, 2018, 01:45:40 AM »
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From Anthony Summers:

On December 4, 1963, an undeliverable package addressed to "Lee Oswald" was retrieved from the dead-letter section to a post office in a Dallas suburb.  It was wrongly addressed to 601 W. Nassaus Street, which could approximate to Neches Street, which was near where Oswald had lived. When opened, it turned out to contain a "brown paper bag. . . ."  Since no postal worker is likely to have tossed aside a package addressed to "Lee Oswald" AFTER the name became world famous on November 22, it is reasonable to assume the parcel arrived before the assassination.  Who sent it to Oswald, and why, are questions which appear especially pertinent with the knowledge that another paper bag became key evidence. But the Warren Report did not even mention the mystery parcel, and there is no sign that it was forensically tested or further investigated. (CONSPIRACY, Paragon House Edition, pp. 71-72, original emphasis)


If the discussion centers around how someone could come into possession of a paper bag without making it themselves, it could have arrived via the trusty Post Office.

Mark,

why would Lee, according to the "official" WC version of events, take paper and tape from the first floor shipping room, construct CE 142 in situ (as the tape was wet as it was pulled from the tape dispenser), fold it down and then go and post it to himself when he already had possession of CE 142?

Firstly, it was difficult to fathom how Lee was able to construct the paper bag in the first place without anyone noticing he was loitering around the wrapping table - especially since West practically never left the area and that it was directly outside the offices of Truly and Shelley as well as other workers being on the first floor.

No one saw Lee in the first floor shipping room around the wrapping tables, taking paper and tape and constructing a paper bag.

Secondly, since the paper and tape rolls were routinely changed in the shipping room, Lee would have had a very limited time frame in order to construct and then post the paper bag to himself. How long would it have taken for the US postal service to have processed the package?

Based on the frequency of paper roll changes (one roll/3 days) and tape rolls (~3/day) - it meant there was a very limited time frame for the construction of CE 142.

Why is this significant? Detective Studebaker constructed CE 677 on 22/11/1963 - a piece of tape stuck onto a piece of paper from the shipping room. CE 677 was a 100% forensic match with CE 142, hence neither the paper nor tape rolls had been changed when both CE 142 and CE 677 were constructed.

What was the chance of that? Further there were several rolls of paper and tape present in the shipping room - both Lee and Detective Studebaker had used the same paper and tape samples. What was the chance of that?

We know one thing for sure - Detective Studebaker handled the same rolls of paper and tape that CE 142 and CE 677 were constructed from.

We also know that Detective Studebaker was in the shipping room in the presence of an assembled CE 139.

BTW - the paper bag that was present in the package addressed to Lee was 18 inches long. There also was a strip of corrugated paper of about the same length.

The FBI didn't find any "latent impressions of value" on the items.

No one knows how it got to the Irving post office (found on 4/12/1963) and no one remembers handling it. It was Harry Holmes who informed the FBI (12/12/1963) about it and he opened the package to examine its contents.



Why would anyone post that to Lee?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 03:35:59 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Tony Fratini

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THE RIFLE IN THE BUILDING

The Commission has evaluated the evidence tending to show how Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial number C2766, was brought into the Depository Building, where it was found on the sixth floor shortly after the assassination. In this connection the Commission considered (1) the circumstances surrounding Oswald's return to Irving, Tex., on Thursday, November 21, 1963, (2) the disappearance of the rifle from its normal place of storage, (3) Oswald's arrival at the Depository Building on November 22, carrying a long and bulky brown paper package, (4) the presence of a long handmade brown paper bag near the point from which the shots were fired, and (5) the palmprint, fiber, and paper analyses linking Oswald and the assassination weapon to this bag.

Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 2414-2419). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.

Problem was - (1) could have been totally for non-nefarious intentions, (2) there was no proof CE 139 was still present at the Paine's house on 21/11/1963 (3) and (4) were not proven and not consistent with eyewitness testimony and (5) partials on CE 142 do not prove Lee constructed CE 142 and the FBI could not prove CE 139 was in any way connected to CE 142.

CE 142 was the key to linking Lee to CE 139 (especially since the FBI couldn't link CE 139 to LHO on the 23/11/1963) even though the FBI could not link CE 139 to CE 142.

How then was the WC able to conclude that LHO was the assassin?


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Online John Iacoletti

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What exactly do they think links the "assassination weapon" to the bag?

Online Tony Fratini

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What exactly do they think links the "assassination weapon" to the bag?

Nothing. But that didn't dissuade the FBI nor the WC.

They had no choice nor alternatives to how CE 139 was brought into the TSBD. It was by Lee in CE 142 on 22/11/1963. No matter that no one saw Lee with either item.

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