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Author Topic: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?  (Read 56188 times)

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2290 on: July 11, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
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I did explain Jack.....why donít you want to see where we agree and where we donít? I am trying to start with some common ground. Chicken lunch and lunch sack on the 6th floor or not. I say yes, how say you?



You were serious about that explanation, but not so proud of it to repeat it?  How again is a detective who is holding his hat really holding a piece of chicken instead?

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2290 on: July 11, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2291 on: July 11, 2018, 02:05:01 PM »
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Cop out. I'm asking you.
Only if it ever existed. But he didn't. That's the way the kookie crumbles.

You ask some daft questions, Jack.


You asked a question and then answered it. If you are going to talk to yourself, I don't see the need to be involved.



If LMR seen it a distance Dougherty would have seen it.


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2292 on: July 11, 2018, 02:07:15 PM »
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The issue is simple to understand Jack - neither BWF nor LMR were describing CE 142.

Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?

BWF - key points

"it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long."

"I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat."

Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?

Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there.

BWF was then shown the replica paper bag WITH a disassembled MC inside it

Mr. BALL - Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like this.
Mr. BALL - It was more like this color, correct?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I didn't see it very much.

Mr. BALL - Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear to be about the same length?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, folded over? Do you remember that?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.

Mr. BALL - Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 for identification, with reference to the width.
Was the bag about that width or a different width?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say it appears to me it would be pretty close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.

Mr. BALL - You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?
Mr. FRAZIER - I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.

BWF did NOT see Lee carrying CE 142 with a disassembled rifle inside it.

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I measured both the paper sack, Exhibit 142, and the known I paper sample, Exhibit 677, at 0.0057 inch, that is fifty-seven ten-thousandths.

LMR admitted in an FBI report that she had a very brief view of the paper bag so how was she able to ascertain that it was "a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag" from?

The paper was 0.14 millimeters in thickness.

The most damning of all was that neither BWF nor LMR IDed an unstained CE 142 at City Hall on 22/11/1963.

This was what BWF saw, not what YOU think he saw.



You are trying to morph a ~ 20 inch paper bag into a 38 inch x 8.5 inch paper bag that neither witness saw.

You have failed miserably.

CE 142 - was not a commercially available paper bag, was taped, was folded, had an open end, was not made from flimsy paper (it had a GSM of ~89) was WAY too long and too wide.

CE 142 showed no evidence it contained or carried anything of bulk and the FBI proved it couldn't be linked to any weapon.




LMR's testimony cast doubt on her brothers recollection of LHO carrying the bag. As you have stated many times why does the finger print information not support carrying the bag cupped in his hand.

Randle easily noticed LHO carrying a bag. She estimates to the FBI it was 3 feet 6 inches long. She estimates its length to the WC at 27 to 28 1/2 inches long. BWF continually stated he did not pay attention to it.

The way LMR describes LHO carrying the bag with one hand would be the proper length with the bottom near the ground.


RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.

----------------------------------------

This statement by LMR is a long way from not identifying the bag. The FBI is 100%, reference the bullet from the Walker shooting.

RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance.



Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2293 on: July 11, 2018, 03:34:26 PM »
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.
----------------------------------------

This statement by LMR is a long way from not identifying the bag. The FBI is 100%, reference the bullet from the Walker shooting.

RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance.

LOL -- can anyone make any sense of this?

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2294 on: July 11, 2018, 03:45:08 PM »
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You asked a question and then answered it. If you are going to talk to yourself, I don't see the need to be involved.

Good.  The questions you ask are stupid.


Quote
If LMR seen[sic] it a distance Dougherty would have seen it.

Why would Dougherty have seen it just because LMR saw it? Sheesh. Yet another stupid comment.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:43:58 PM by Ray Mitcham »

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2294 on: July 11, 2018, 03:45:08 PM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2295 on: July 11, 2018, 10:26:46 PM »
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LOL -- can anyone make any sense of this?

LMR's observations can not be used to make an accurate determination of the size of the paper bag.

She was shown the actual paper bag that she was meant to have seen earlier that morning and failed to positively ID it.

BWF did the same thing.

Hence, the only two witnesses that saw Lee with a paper bag on the morning of 22/11/1963 failed to ID the paper bag (CE 142) taken from the TSBD. The paper bag was not stained and according to Jack Nessan, the wind blew all the finger print dust from it.

BWF has never changed his mind about the paper bag.

Two completely different paper bags.

Clearly, Lee didn't have CE 142 that morning.

Online Tony Fratini

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  • Mr. FRITZ. I wasn't there when that was recovered.
Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2296 on: July 12, 2018, 01:15:43 AM »
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You were serious about that explanation, but not so proud of it to repeat it?  How again is a detective who is holding his hat really holding a piece of chicken instead?

J I M  E W E L L, N E W S R E P O R T E R, No More Silience

"Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he hadbeen eating.


How did Jim know that Jerry stated that "the fried chicken was what he had been eating"?

He heard him.

How do you know that Jerry simply didn't place the chicken lunch sack back down on the floor, prior to being photographed, and then tried to get the attention of the Detectives on the ground? His shouting drawing the attention of the photographer?

A chicken lunch sack was initially seen at the SN on a box, noted by Mooney and Hill and then a chicken lunch sack was photographed by Studebaker to Jerry's right hand side on the floor next to the two wheeler.

Doesn't take a genius to work out what happened Jack.

The chicken lunch sack was picked up from the box in the SN by Jerry brought over to the window where he stuck his head out and then placed back down on the ground.

Studebaker would of course had no idea what Jerry did prior to his arrival with the camera.

No wind required either  ;D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 01:19:24 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2297 on: July 12, 2018, 02:19:28 AM »
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Doesn't take a genius to work out what happened Jack.


Something close to a full deck might be handy it seems.....

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2297 on: July 12, 2018, 02:19:28 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2298 on: July 12, 2018, 02:20:30 PM »
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LOL -- can anyone make any sense of this?


You are right. That was poorly written.




Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2299 on: July 12, 2018, 02:21:59 PM »
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Good.  The questions you ask are stupid.


Why would Dougherty have seen it just because LMR saw it? Sheesh. Yet another stupid comment.

Ray you are talking to yourself again.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2299 on: July 12, 2018, 02:21:59 PM »