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Author Topic: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?  (Read 27112 times)

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 05:24:39 AM »
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JohnM,

Myth 1

pay close attention - the paper taken from the roll by Studebaker was at least 41 inches - more than enough to wrap an assembled CE 139. Its task was to take the rifle to City Hall in a concealed manner which was just a few minutes away.

Myth 2

See above.

Myth 3

I showed that the wrapping benches had stains on them.

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Myth 4

Excessively folded compared to what? Studebaker folded it, to take it upstairs.


Myth 5

Crumpled by whom? Studebaker or Montgomery? Note there is no tapered or taped end on CE 142. Dan Rather's representation is a fraud.

Myth 6

Back seat? You have LMR's word only and she can not collaborate the observation and her brother could have easily embellished the story.

Myth 7

Same issue as above - he said vs he said.

Oswald's prints? Mayfield will argue with you that the FBI fingerprinting experts can make mistakes - costly ones at that.

It is not a poll thread - I want feedback and reasons why I am wrong.




Quote
pay close attention - the paper taken from the roll by Studebaker was at least 41 inches - more than enough to wrap an assembled CE 139. Its task was to take the rifle to City Hall in a concealed manner which was just a few minutes away.


Huh, the 38 inch bag was made to fit a rifle that was 36 inches long. Oswald based the size on the Kleins ad.



Quote
I showed that the wrapping benches had stains on them.





Hahahaha, you're just seeing a table that's worn.
It's a table that's used to send out customers orders and you're saying that it has a constant wet spot that somehow transferred to Oswald's rifle bag and presumably all the customers orders as well??
Or are you saying that Oswald's rifle bag transferred it's stain onto the table? LOL!

Quote
Excessively folded compared to what? Studebaker folded it, to take it upstairs.

You reckon this is the result of being folded just an hour or two earlier?
Btw why is he treating the bag like it's evidence?



Quote
Back seat? You have LMR's word only and she can not collaborate the observation and her brother could have easily embellished the story.

Why would Linnie lie?
Linnie saw Oswald put the large package in the back seat and Frazier saw the package on the back seat, slam dunk!

Quote
Oswald's prints? Mayfield will argue with you that the FBI fingerprinting experts can make mistakes - costly ones at that.

This again, really Tony?, how the FBI kept their records has zero connection with the direct hands on positive ID of Oswald's prints on the bag.

Quote
It is not a poll thread - I want feedback and reasons why I am wrong.

You should make it a poll thread and perhaps you will wake up to yourself.



JohnM




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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 05:24:39 AM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 05:28:17 AM »
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We should try some experiments to see how easy it is to take paper from a roll with bare hands, and tape from the roll, with bare hands, and fold the paper several times and the tape somehow too, and place them inside our jacket, and then take them out later, and unfold the paper, and lay out the tape, and then begin making the bag , and then putting the rifle disassembled and all that into the bag, and folding the end of the bag, and the carrying the bag several times, lifting it and placing it down and lifting it again, removing the parts from the bag, or the garbage bag the parts were wrapped in, removing that from the bag..

and then see how if the single solitary print at top and 1 palm print at bottom bag can be demonstated to be anywhere near probable.

We will  not count any of   the 37 attempts that might have some malfunction of ripping the bag, or leaving an oil stain, or leaving some clear indent into the paper, or prints other than the 1 single finger print at top and 1 palm print at bottom.

Despite the FBI expert finding no evidence of any weapon being within CE 142, this didn't deter the WC at all. Yet had the FBI expert found evidence for an association with CE 139, it would have been splashed in every News print in the US.

The FBI were only interested in prints belonging to LHO, no one else.

What the FBI did find inside CE 142 was a small piece of wood as well as candle wax. Wax was often used as a water sealant.

The removed window sill was a weather strip.



« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 05:45:27 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2018, 05:40:39 AM »
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Huh, the 38 inch bag was made to fit a rifle that was 36 inches long. Oswald based the size on the Kleins ad.







Hahahaha, you're just seeing a table that's worn.
It's a table that's used to send out customers orders and you're saying that it has a constant wet spot that somehow transferred to Oswald's rifle bag and presumably all the customers orders as well??
Or are you saying that Oswald's rifle bag transferred it's stain onto the table? LOL!

You reckon this is the result of being folded just an hour or two earlier?
Btw why is he treating the bag like it's evidence?



Why would Linnie lie?
Linnie saw Oswald put the large package in the back seat and Frazier saw the package on the back seat, slam dunk!

This again, really Tony?, how the FBI kept their records has zero connection with the direct hands on positive ID of Oswald's prints on the bag.

You should make it a poll thread and perhaps you will wake up to yourself.

JohnM

No - the paper taken from the roll was 41 inches at least - give Studebaker some credit.

Where do you think the paper got the stain from? That's where Studebaker and Day were. Those tables were where the boys had their coffee as well.

Do creases "age" differently after one day as compared to 1 hour? Studebaker took it with him upstairs - why would he treat a paper bag with TLC?

If the bag was treated like evidence, why did Lt Day leave it behind in the TSBD? Hmmm? Why did he fail to photograph it? Hmm?

Why wasnt it opened up to look inside? Hmm? Why did 12 people not see it in situ? Hmm?

You have no answers JohnM. Never did.

LMR knew full well what was going to happen to her naive younger brother.

I know right - how could the FBI FU with a slam dunk like Mayfield? I can give you $2,000,000 reasons.

Your blowing smoke -you cant place LHO in the wrapping room, but I sure can with Studebaker.



« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 05:44:21 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2018, 01:29:36 PM »
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No - the paper taken from the roll was 41 inches at least - give Studebaker some credit.

Where do you think the paper got the stain from? That's where Studebaker and Day were. Those tables were where the boys had their coffee as well.

Do creases "age" differently after one day as compared to 1 hour? Studebaker took it with him upstairs - why would he treat a paper bag with TLC?

If the bag was treated like evidence, why did Lt Day leave it behind in the TSBD? Hmmm? Why did he fail to photograph it? Hmm?

Why wasnt it opened up to look inside? Hmm? Why did 12 people not see it in situ? Hmm?

You have no answers JohnM. Never did.

LMR knew full well what was going to happen to her naive younger brother.

I know right - how could the FBI FU with a slam dunk like Mayfield? I can give you $2,000,000 reasons.

Your blowing smoke -you cant place LHO in the wrapping room, but I sure can with Studebaker.

If the bag was treated like evidence, why did Lt Day leave it behind in the TSBD? Hmmm?

Tony, Have you never seen the report or memo that Lt Day wrote in which he said he spotted a paper sack that was SHAPED like a gun case ?   At the time Roy Truly was with him and he ( Day) asked if he'd ever seen the gun case before.   Truly denied ever having seen the paper gun case ....Day folded it up and put it in his jacket never to be seen again.

LMR knew full well what was going to happen to her naive younger brother.

LMR did NOT realize that she was getting her brother involved when she decided to claim her "moment  of fame" by going to the Paine's house and telling the police that she had seen the villain carrying a long paper sack that morning.

She had had been watching TV and she had seen Detective Montgomery carry that huge bag from the TSBD and that's where she got the idea that she could help the police.  She had no idea that she was creating a nightmare for herself and her brother. 

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2018, 04:31:23 PM »
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Joe,

since when does an impromptu visit to see his family, to mend a heated argument over the phone with Marina, equate to killing the POTUS?

No one saw LHO with CE 142.

No need to Joe, the FBI proved he took the paper and tape from the rolls of the TSBD and as admitted by Lt Day.

No one knew how and who placed the rifle in the TSBD at the time the rifle was found. 

What are Studebaker and Day doing in the wrapping room when they had the evidence with them?

Neither Studebaker nor Lt Day framed anyone with CE 142.

Not at all - the presence of the rifle anywhere in the TSBD was all that was required by a conspirator to implicate LHO in the assassination.

CE 142 was constructed for non nefarious means - to take CE 139 out of the TSBD.

Studebaker and Day were Law enforcement officers who had CE 139 with them, what is the big deal of wrapping it in paper to transport it to City Hall?

Have you read what Day told Sneed? It strongly implied, he was thinking of wrapping CE 139 up but decided it wasnt a good idea.

CE 142 was constructed for non nefarious means - to take CE 139 out of the TSBD.

If that is true.....Why wouldn't they simply admit that they had constructed the bag to protect it in transit?

I agree that Studebaker and Day constructed the bag that Montgomery carried from the building......

Since Day wrote a memo in which he stated that he had found a gun case SHAPED ( tapered)  paper sack and concealed that sack from everybody. ......I believe he and Studebaker constructed the bag that Montgomery carried out of the building.  They intended it to be a decoy  for the reporters .....because even though Day stated that he had not displayed the gun case shaped sack to anybody......he knew that Tom Alyea had seen that tapered bag.     

I'd bet the farm that the tapered gun case had a person's name ( Campbell ?, Truly?, Shelly?,  et al) written on it.....because one of the guns that Truly had at his office on Wednesday had been from  a gun shop or sporting goods store and they had written the name of the owner on that bag.

 

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2018, 04:31:23 PM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2018, 01:23:03 AM »
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CE 142 was constructed for non nefarious means - to take CE 139 out of the TSBD.

If that is true.....Why wouldn't they simply admit that they had constructed the bag to protect it in transit?

I agree that Studebaker and Day constructed the bag that Montgomery carried from the building......

Since Day wrote a memo in which he stated that he had found a gun case SHAPED ( tapered)  paper sack and concealed that sack from everybody. ......I believe he and Studebaker constructed the bag that Montgomery carried out of the building.  They intended it to be a decoy  for the reporters .....because even though Day stated that he had not displayed the gun case shaped sack to anybody......he knew that Tom Alyea had seen that tapered bag.     

I'd bet the farm that the tapered gun case had a person's name ( Campbell ?, Truly?, Shelly?,  et al) written on it.....because one of the guns that Truly had at his office on Wednesday had been from  a gun shop or sporting goods store and they had written the name of the owner on that bag.

Hi Walt,

have a read of this.

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LHO told Fritz about these rifles that he saw Mr Truly with.

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So it appeared not to be a "big deal" bringing in a rifle or two to work at all and showing it off to the other employees.

It was deer hunting season after all Walt.

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What type of rifle did Arnold Rowland see again on the 6th floor? CE 139? I don't think so.

Mr. ROWLAND - No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.
Mr. SPECTER - When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?
Mr. ROWLAND - That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you own any rifles?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; my stepfather does.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER - And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer with?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?
Mr. ROWLAND - I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one of the most popular for deer hunting.
Mr. SPECTER - Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?
Mr. ROWLAND - The best I could tell it was of that size.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it.
Mr. SPECTER - And did this rifle appear similar to the one your stepfather owned?
Mr. ROWLAND - From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar manufacture.

Not CE 139
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 01:42:53 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2018, 02:58:16 AM »
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Bumping. Predictable to get a post filled with rhetoric and short on information.

Here is the challenge that Paul failed to respond to.

Easy question for you Paul (or anyone). When was CE142 discovered and by whom? No need to provide the exact time just the event ordered amongst those others that day. Eg discovery of the shells, chicken lunch, rifle, the dusting for prints of these and the SN boxes and wooden strip, Tippit shooting, Day taking the rifle to the DPD and the eventual removal of "evidence by Montgomery and Johnson.

Anyone care to give it a shot?

I will give it a try Colin - see my answer below  ;D

update

The "SN" in the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD containing three spent hulls on the floor and a chicken lunch sack and a partially eaten piece of chicken on a book box was discovered at ~1.15 pm by Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney

A 38 inch x 8.5 inch paper bag (CE 142) in the "SN" in the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD next to the spent hulls was discovered at what time and by whom?

A hidden 40.2 inch rifle (CE 139) in the NW corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD was discovered at ~ 1.22 pm by Dallas Sheriff’s Deputy Eugene Boone.

Who was at and in the "SN" and didn't see CE 142 in situ?

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Luke Mooney

Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department Gerald Lynn Hill 
 
Captain of homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department J. W. Fritz

Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department Elmer L. Boyd 

Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department (since August 2, 1948) Richard M. Sims

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Roger Dean Craig

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department A. D. McCurley

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Jack W. Faulkner

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Ralph Walters

Detective in the criminal intelligence section, Police Department Dallas V. J. Brian

Sergeant Patrol Division, Dallas Police Department Donald Flusche
 
Cameraman for WFAA-TV in Dallas, Texas Tom Alyea


« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 10:09:13 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2018, 09:03:11 AM »
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Tony, Have you never seen the report or memo that Lt Day wrote in which he said he spotted a paper sack that was SHAPED like a gun case ?   At the time Roy Truly was with him and he ( Day) asked if he'd ever seen the gun case before.   Truly denied ever having seen the paper gun case ....Day folded it up and put it in his jacket never to be seen again.


The memo Walt refers to even came in two flavors. It is discussed by Pat Speer in this article:

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Btw, wasn't Frazier shown the bag late on the 22nd?

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2018, 09:03:11 AM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2018, 09:15:59 AM »
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The memo Walt refers to even came in two flavors. It is discussed by Pat Speer in this article:

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Btw, wasn't Frazier shown the bag late on the 22nd?

BWF was shown an unstained CE 142 during his polygraph on the night of 22/11/1963 and couldn't ID it. He passed his polygraph test.

Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2018, 10:53:10 AM »
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BWF was shown an unstained CE 142 during his polygraph on the night of 22/11/1963 and couldn't ID it. He passed his polygraph test.

Right, so if what the report states is true Day refers to a different bag that the one Frazier was shown although the report says it was the one that traveled back and forth between the DPD and the FBI. Interesting date of interview, the same day the WC was formed... 

IMO the most damming evidence is Studebaker's crime scene photo 039 where he must have been literary standing on the bag taking the shot, that combined with his sketch missing the bag entirely although he supposedly dusted it for prints.

Good to see your bag thread coming back. I'll post something later on the CE numbers.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2018, 10:53:10 AM »