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Author Topic: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?  (Read 45913 times)

Online Tony Fratini

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  • Mr. FRITZ. I wasn't there when that was recovered.
Why is CE 142 a controversial piece of crime scene evidence?

Who had constructed it - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?


I want to present my case that it was in fact constructed by Detective Robert Lee Studebaker for totally non-nefarious means on the afternoon of 22/11/1963 in the first floor shipping room of the TSBD.

What was CE 142?

CE 142 was the "home made" paper bag that the DP, FBI and WC believed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) had constructed from paper and 3 inch wide tape samples taken from the first floor shipping room of the TSBD likely on or before the 21/11/1963. Since the tape had to be pulled through a dispenser, it was specifically marked and wet as it was pulled through. As a consequence of this, the paper bag likely had to be constructed in situ otherwise the tape would not have been sticky.

At no stage did TSBD employee Troy West (who was the main book wrapper) ever see LHO in the shipping room.

LHO would of then had to have folded the paper bag which was 38 inches x 8.5 inches (oblong shape) into a smaller size and conceal it on him when he was driven home on Thursday night (21/11/1963) by BWF to see his wife and two children who were staying at the Paine household.

BWF did not see or hear any paper bag on LHO while he was driven to the Paine household on 21/11/1963.

Neither Marina nor Ruth ever saw LHO with any paper bag on 21/11/1963.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband carried any package with him when he left the house on November 22nd?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small package.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some container?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

The DP, FBI and WC believed that LHO had constructed CE 142 went to the Paine garage and placed a disassembled CE 139 (the rifle) into CE 142 (the paper bag) and placed it into the backseat of BWF's car as seen by LMR, his sister on 22/11/1963.

Neither Marina nor Ruth saw LHO enter or leave the garage on 21/11/1963. Ruth admitted that she went into the garage but does not know who left the garage light on.

LHO then took "the package" (disassembled CE 139 in CE 142) to the TSBD at 8 am.

No one saw LHO with any package while inside the TSBD on the 22/11/1963.

This included Jack Edwin Dougherty who saw LHO enter into the TSBD from the back door at 8 am. As you see below, it would be difficult not to note the presence of CE 142 in someone's hands:

Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?  ;D
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.

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What always intrigued me was just how did LHO "know" the correct width (8.5 inches) to make the paper bag to hold an assembled CE 139 with scope attached without having CE 139 with him in the first floor shipping room as a point of reference?

The size of the taped flap at one end was approximately 3 inches, meaning the paper was initially long enough (41 inches) to completely conceal a fully assembled CE 139 with scope.

Why did Detective Studebaker and Lt Day stop in the first floor shipping room?

Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape was of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.

Mr. DAY. I directed one of the officers standing by me, I don't know which, to get a piece of the tape and a piece of the paper from the wrapping bench.

Comment

Does anyone seriously believe that Lt Day took a mental note of the width of the tape on CE 142 and had the amazing ability to note a tape dispenser on a wrapping bench in a cluttered shipping room and note that the tape was the same width as the tape on CE 142?  :o

Detective Robert Lee Studebaker was in the first floor shipping room of the TSBD (after CE 139 was discovered on the 6th floor) in the presence of Truly and Day, handled the paper and tape that was a 100% match to CE 142 and CE 677 (tape stuck on paper) and was in the presence of the assembled CE 139 that Day had with him.

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this is the record I made of the gun when I took it back office. Now, the gun did not leave my possession.
Mr. BELIN. From the time it was found at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I took the gun myself and retained possession, took it to the office where I dictated----

This made me ask some tough questions about the origins of CE 142.

A wrapping table in the first floor of the TSBD with paper and tape dispenser

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CE 677 placed both Studebaker and Day in the first floor wrapping room

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Mr Truly was in the first floor wrapping room when the paper and tape samples were removed

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Studebaker and Day in the first floor wrapping room

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The WC did not ask Detective Studebaker about being in the first floor wrapping room collecting paper and tape samples.

The WC did not ask Mr Truly about being in the shipping room while Detective Studebaker took paper and tape samples.

Lee Harvey Oswald - did he construct CE 142?

In comparison, no one saw Lee Harvey Oswald, remove paper and tape samples from the first floor shipping room, construct, transport, bring to the Paine household and placed a disassembled CE 139 into any paper bag or container.

No witness ever saw LHO with CE 142 in his possession that included BWF and LMR on the night of 22/11/1963.

CE 142 was meant to be in the SE corner of the so-called SN on the 6th floor of the TSBD

Up to 11 seasoned and experienced Law Enforcement Officers (Detectives/Deputy Sheriffs/Sergeants/Captain) and 1 camera man never saw CE 142 in situ, including Captain Will Fritz who was in the SN and examined the boxes and the spent hulls.

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Captain Will Fritz and the SN, WC testimony

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there were some boxes stacked there and I believe one box, one small box I believe was in the window, and another box was on the floor. There were some boxes stacked to his right that more or less blinded him from the rest of the floor. If anyone else had been on the floor I doubt if they could have seen where he was sitting.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anything other----
Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day, of course, made a detailed description of all of that and he can give it to you much better than I can.
Mr. McCLOY. He is going to be here?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and he will give it to you in detail; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.
Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.

Captain Will Fritz, Tom Alyea and the SN

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"The barricade on the sixth floor ran parallel to the windows, extending in an "L" shape that ended against the front wall between the first and second twin windows. The height of the stack of boxes was a minimum of 5 ft. I looked over the barricade and saw three shell casings laying on the floor in front of the second window in the two window casement. They were scattered in an area that could be covered by a bushel basket. They were located about half way between the inside of the barricade. I set my lens focus at the estimated distance from the camera to the floor and held the camera over the top of the barricade and filmed them before anybody went into the enclosure. I could not position my eye to the camera's view finder to get the shot. After filming the casings with my wide angle lens, from a height of 5 ft., I asked Captain Fritz, who was standing at my side, if I could go behind the barricade and get a close-up shot of the casings. He told me that it would be better if I got my shots from outside the barricade. He then rounded the pile of boxes and entered the enclosure. This was the first time anybody walked between the barricade and the windows.

Alyea was unaware that Mooney and Hill had already been at the SN. Fritz had entered the SN from the LHS (facing Elm) meaning he had to have stepped onto CE 142. Fritz never saw any paper bag in situ in the SE corner nor under his feet.

"We all looked over the barricade to see if the half open window with three boxes piled to form a shooting rest for a gunman. One box was actually on the window sill, tilted at an angle. There was a reason for this that I cover in my JFK Facts newsletter. The shooting location consists of two windows set together to form one single window. (The police photo showing the shell casings laying next to the brick wall was staged later by crime lab people who did not see the original positioning because they were not called upon the scene until after the rifle was found nearly an hour later.)" . . .

Studebaker, Alyea and the "SN"

"Studebaker never saw the original placement of the casings so he tossed them on the floor and photographed them. Det. Studebaker was alone at this site until after Lt. Day left the building with the rifle. We in the search team went to the sniper's site. Studebaker had already photographed the casings on the floor and was busy dusting the pop bottle when we arrived. The casings were no longer on the floor. I never saw them again. The barricade had been completely dismantled and the boxes from the West side of the barricade had been removed and placed in various locations around the site. We did not realize at the time that Studebaker had not recorded on film the original placement of the boxes in the barricade. He also had removed the shooting support boxes on the window ledge and stacked them one on top of the other on the floor inside. He took a picture of this reconstructed arrangement.

Now you see it, now you don't - the magical paper bag that disappeared then reappeared on demand

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Who was at and in the "SN" and didn't see CE 142 in situ?

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Luke Mooney

Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department Gerald Lynn Hill 
 
Captain of homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department J. W. Fritz

Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department Elmer L. Boyd

Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department (since August 2, 1948) Richard M. Sims

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Roger Dean Craig

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department A. D. McCurley

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Jack W. Faulkner

Deputy Sheriff for the Dallas County Sheriff's Department Ralph Walters

Detective in the criminal intelligence section, Police Department Dallas V. J. Brian

Sergeant Patrol Division, Dallas Police Department Donald Flusche
 
Cameraman for WFAA-TV in Dallas, Texas Tom Alyea

What was the role of Lt Day?

Mr. BELIN. Now, in your 23 years of work for the Dallas Police Department, have you had occasion to spend a good number of these years in crime-scene matters?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long, about?
Mr. DAY. The past 7 years I have been--I have had immediate supervision of the crime-scene search section. It is our responsibility to go to the scene of the crime, take photographs, check for fingerprints, collect any other evidence that might be available, and primarily we are to assist the investigators with certain technical parts of the investigation.

Where was the in situ photograph of CE 142?

No in situ photo (or film) of CE 142 ever was taken by either Studebaker nor Day despite having a fully functional camera.

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No one knows who moved CE 142 in situ and why it wasnt photographed in situ. This was not further investigated by the FBI nor the WC.

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Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down - I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Big trouble for the WC with the lack of CE 142 in the SE corner

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Detective Studebaker takes a crime scene photo while standing next to or on top of CE 142 and yet fails to photograph it?

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Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know - I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

Detective Studebaker fails to place in CE 142 in his map of the SN - 25/11/1963. Why?

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Johnson, Montgomery and Studebaker - comedy central at the SN

Who was present?

Montgomery (was stationed where the hulls were found and did not see CE 139)

Johnson (was stationed where the Dr Pepper bottle was and did not see CE 139)

Studebaker - had come back onto the 6th floor with CE 142 and the camera. He saw and photographed CE 139.

Mr. BELIN. When the rifle was found, did you leave your post?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What about Detective Montgomery?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

The fun begins

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it?
Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.
Mr. BELIN. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded?
Mr. JOHNSON. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small package.

Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I couldn't say exact distance. All I know is my partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was from the wall in either direction, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.
That is why, the reason we saved it.

Johnson had no idea what rifle was found, yet is acting like Nostradamus and still Studebaker doesn't photograph it.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene.
Mr. BELIN. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they did use it for something.

Studebaker definitely dusted the chicken lunch sack but not CE 142.

Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.
Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.
Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective
Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.

Montgomery is now acting like Nostradamus and yet CE 142 isn't photographed.

Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?
Mr. BALL. The paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?
Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You picked it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

So now no one touched it nor unfolded it and Studebaker dusted it for prints and doesn't take a photograph.

Studebaker

Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper - I don't know what it was.
Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know - I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.

Note - no mention of his little trip to the first floor shipping room with Lt Day nor the construction of CE 677

The Three Amigos

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was with them in the corner all the time - they were with me rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and help us in case they were needed.
Mr. BALL. Johnson and Montgomery?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Johnson and Montgomery - they were with me all the time over in that one corner.

Neither Johnson nor Montgomery, both of whom remarked about the rifle being inside the paper bag thought they should tell Studebaker about their Nostradamus moment nor watch him take a photograph of it. Staggering.

Suddenly Detective Studebaker goes total recall

Mr Ball asked this as the final questions to Detective Studebaker

Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper.that you saw - you saw the wrapper - tell me about how big that paper bag was - how long was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3 1/2 to 4 feet long.
Mr. BALL. The paper bag?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And how wide was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER.Approximately 8 inches.

Wow! From knowing "nothing" to providing dimensions of CE 142 - yes he should know.

My hypothesis - CE 142 was constructed by Detective Studebaker

I personally believe there is much stronger evidence, and a case for, that CE 142 wasnt constructed by LHO but was constructed by Detective Robert Lee Studebaker for the express purposes of placing the fully assembled CE 139 into it in order to transport it to City Hall by Lt. Day.

Day changed his mind due to the possibility of smudging fingerprints on CE 139.

CE 142 was left behind with Detective Robert Lee Studebaker, while Day took CE 139 to City Hall for further processing.

CE 142 was instead used for the removal of the thin wooden window sill strip taken from the SE corner of the 6th floor - the so called "SN".

CE 142 was first seen and photographed outside of the TSBD in the hands of Detective Montgomery at ~ 3 pm. Montgomery is holding a thin object that is propping up the paper bag.

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No one knows how the thin wooden window sill strip removed from the SN was taken to City Hall.

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Mr Truly gives the dimensions of the window sill strip and noted it was removed only from the one window

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No one knows what the FBI did with the window sill strip

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Speculation: Detective Montgomery held up CE 142 with the thin wooden window strip that was 30 inches long.


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Note - this would mean that one "panel" of the paper bag would flop down (as shown above).

CE 142 AND THE 30 INCH WINDOW SILL PIECE - AN UPDATE



CE 142 was "clocked in" at City Hall at 3.20 pm

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Note there is no CE 677 - where is it?

FBI Analysis of CE 142 and CE 677

CE 677 (made by Detective Studebaker) and CE 142 were made from the same exact paper and tape samples

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The FBI could not associate CE 142 with CE 139 or to any weapon.

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The FBI found the presence of a small piece of wood and candle wax inside CE 142.

Studebaker and Day could not find any fingerprints on CE 142 using black magnetic powder (22/11/1963).

The FBI (23/11/1963) found two partial prints which they stated came from LHO using silver nitrate which is a destructive process.

The Forensic FBI evidence

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The movement of CE 142 from the shipping room to the 6th floor

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This explained why the early Law enforcement Officers and Camera man Tom Alyea who were at an "untouched" SN never saw CE 142 in situ, but was later seen in the SE corner by several Detectives - notably Montgomery, Johnson and Studebaker.

The activities of Lt Day - 22/11/1963

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CE 142, its construction and movement is associated with Detective Robert Lee Studebaker.

The only place Mr Truly would have seen CE 142 was in the first floor wrapping room - another version of the FBI Vincent Drain note

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The direct observation of BWF exonerates LHO as being in possession of CE 142

First day testimony clearly explains how BWF saw Lee holding the paper bag on the morning of 22/11/1963.

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BWF passed his polygraph test and he didn't recognize an unstained CE 142

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The DP can not find the paper bag as described by BWF on the night of 22/11/1963

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This was not what the DP, FBI and WC wanted to hear from BWF

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The problem for the DP, FBI and WC of a 20 inch (or smaller) paper bag

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CE 142 was 55% of Lee's body height and extremely difficult to conceal

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CE 142 was not a commercially available paper bag as described by BWF

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BWF vs the WC

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Dan Rather invents his own version of "CE 142"

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What did Dan Rather get wrong about what BWF saw?

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Bugliosi and the leaning forward paper bag

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This was how far the paper bag had to "lean forward" for BWF not to see it from behind. Keep in mind that CE 139 was 8 pounds in weight.

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The FBI construct a replica paper sack

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The paper and tape were completely different to CE 677 and CE 142. This meant that by the time the FBI constructed the replica paper sack, the paper and tape rolls in the shipping room had been changed.

The WC assigned the paper bag two CE numbers - why?

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CE 142 (stained with silver nitrate) in the NA

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An unstained CE 142 in the FBI crimes lab - note is was completely flat

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The bag in Montgomery's hands is the same one in the NA but appears to have a flap added at one end

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Lt. Day writes directly on CE 142 instead of placing an ID tag on it

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This suggests that Lt. Day wrote on CE 142 back at City Hall prior to handing it to Vincent Drain (FBI).

The chicken lunch sack (belonging to BRW) was dusted with fingerprint powder and was tagged

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A close look at CE 142 doesn't show any obvious black fingerprint powder as Studebaker claimed he did in situ.

Mr. BALL. You say you dusted it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. With that magnetic powders.
Mr. BALL. Did you lift any prints?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. There wasn't but just smudges on it - is all it was. There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of tape on it preserve it.
Mr. BALL. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; just a partial print.
Mr. BALL. The print of a finger or palm or what?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. You couldn't tell, it was so small.
Mr. BALL. But you did dust it and lift some print?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with some paper?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have - it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it just strictly for fingerprinting.
Mr. BALL. Let's stick with the paper.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over it - I'm sure I did.
Mr. BALL. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Which paper sample(s) taken from the TSBD (22/11/1963) were dusted with Black magnetic powder?

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The FBI expert failed to find any fingerprint preserving tape on the outside of CE 142. This contradicted what Detective Studebaker told the WC.

Did Detective Studebaker only dust the chicken lunch sack in situ?

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When a lack of crime scene evidence is not an problem for the FBI or the WC - a drawing would suffice

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The partial prints on CE 142

Due to the destructive nature of silver nitrate, these can not longer be re-examined for contact DNA.

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Three Detectives signed and dated CE 142 right next to a print that none of them could have seen on 22/11/1963. Neither Montgomery, Studebaker nor Johnson were shown CE 142 during their WC testimonies.

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The construction of CE 142

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The "Bag within a Bag" - a memorandum that has to read to be believed.

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Carl Day had to be prompted about one of the largest items (CE 142) in the photo that he took. Why?

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CE 142 was oblong shaped and did not have a tapered end in order to conceal a dismantled CE 139 within it.

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Marina doesn't see her husband enter in the Paine garage at any stage of the evening

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Those damn curtain rods - did they really exist?

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Carl Day, No More Silence

"Also found on the sixth floor, as I recall, near the shell area,
was a paper bag. It should have been photographed, but for some
reason, apparently wasnít
. The story that I received later was that
when this man came to work that morning he was carrying
something wrapped in shipping or wrapping paper or brown roll
paper.
In the shipping room on the first floor, there were one or
two rolls of that paper. We took the end pieces off those rolls for
possible comparison with the bag that was found. It would have
been a tedious job, but on other cases Iíve had occasion to match
the ends of two pieces of paper.
If you can find the right place,
theyíll match up, even if itís torn off. We had possession of that
bag, but I didnít have a chance to work with it due to events that
later occurred."


Comment

Day had no idea how CE 139 was brought into the TSBD at that stage hence CE 142 wasnt used for nefarious purposes to frame a potential assassin. Does anyone seriously believe Day and that he knew at that very stage to start collecting paper and tape from the shipping room when Kraft paper and gummed tape could be purchased anywhere in the US?  Why didn't he take both items immediately to City Hall? It is nothing but a BS story.

"When we opened the door, man, there was a mob out there! I
didnít know whether to run back upstairs or what! If I had realized
how many people were there, I would have done something
besides show that gun. It was definitely a poor way to handle
evidence!
"

Comment

This was why Day initially thought it was a good idea to wrap CE 139 up because it was a "poor way to handle evidence".

"Just looking at it I thought the chances were slim that weíd
find any prints on the rifle itself. It had what we call a wartime
finish on the barrel which would lift out of the stock. That type
of surface didnít take prints well, nor did the wood stock which
was too course or rough. Youíve got to have a smooth, fairly
clean surface before the ridges will leave an impression. If itís
rougher than the ridges of the finger, youíre not going to find
anything there.
At that time, just through casual observation, it didnít look
too promising. It wasnít the place to try to do any fingerprint
work since itís a rather lengthy process and we had other things to
do.
So I decided to carry the gun back to the office at City Hall,
store it under lock and key, examine it under ideal conditions, and
get to it when I could. I didnít have anything to wrap it up with at
the time, so I carried it out making sure that I didnít touch
anything other than the strap. Besides, you had to be careful in
wrapping stuff because if there were any prints, youíre liable to
smear them just from the wrapping."


Comment

Carl Day stated it clearly in black in white - he was in a WRAPPING room collection paper and yet didn't have anything to wrap the rifle in and then explained why it wasnt a good idea to wrap it in paper - smearing of prints.

Montgomery, No More Silence

"I donít remember exactly where I found the brown paper that
Oswald had wrapped the rifle in. It was probably close to 36 inches
long with tape on it and no writing. I recall that it was stuffed
between the boxes, not lying out open on the floor as were the
shell casings.
Since we were looking for the rifle, we figured that it
must have been used to wrap the rifle.
None of the items had been
touched at that time.
Marvin and I also found the sack where heíd
eaten, and I believe that he drank a Dr. Pepper. We later took the
bottle back to the Crime Lab to dust it for prints.
While searching the floor, I heard somebody say, ĎHey, this is
the rifle!Ē Several of us responded and I got a good look at it, but I
didnít know much about it other than it was an old bolt action
military rifle.
After that we took the Dr Pepper bottle and the brown
wrapping paper back to the Crime Lab to be fingerprinted
"

Comment

Montgomery completely contradicts his WC testimony in so many ways 1) location of bag 2) knows the length and what it was used for despite being with Studebaker all the time who doesn't photograph it. Further the bag is taken to City Hall to be fingerprinted completely supporting the photos showing no black magnetic powder on CE 142 and no FBI agent fiding anything on the outside and contradicting Studebaker. Montgomery didn't see CE 139 because he was instructed not to leave his post at the SN. CE 139 was found near the NW stairwell and there were rows of books in the way.

What did the WR state?

Location of Bag
A handmade bag of wrapping paper and tape 174 was found in the southeast corner of the sixth floor alongside the window from which the shots were fired. 175 (See Commission Exhibit No. 2707, p. 142.) It was not a standard type bag which could be obtained in a store and it was presumably made for a particular purpose. It was the appropriate size to contain, in disassembled form, Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial No. C2766, which was also found on the sixth floor. 176 Three cartons had been placed at the window apparently to act as a gun rest and a fourth carton was placed behind those at the window. 177 (See Commission Exhibit No. 1301, p. 138.) A person seated on the fourth carton could assemble the rifle without being seen from the rest of the sixth floor because the cartons stacked around the southeast corner would shield him. 178 (See Commission Exhibit No. 723, p. 80.) The presence of the bag in this corner is cogent evidence that it was used as the container for the rifle. At the time the bag was found, Lieutenant Day of the Dallas police wrote on it, "Found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. May have been used to carry gun. Lt. J. C. Day." 179

Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 2510-2519). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.

Comment

There is no evidence that CE 142 was found in the SE by Lt. Day and further if he wrote on it in situ "May have been used to carry gun", why didn't he photograph it in situ?

"The preponderance of the evidence supports the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald (1) told the curtain rod story to Frazier to explain both the return to Irving on a Thursday and the obvious bulk of the package which he intended to bring to work the next day; (2) took paper and tape from the wrapping bench of the Depository and fashioned a bag large enough to carry the disassembled rifle; (3) removed the rifle from the blanket in the Paines' garage on Thursday evening; (4) carried the rifle into the Depository Building, concealed in the bag; and, (5) left the bag alongside the window from which the shots were fired."

Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 2568-2572). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.

Comment

The WC did not prove points 1 - 5.

Conclusion

Detective Robert Lee Studebaker was in the first floor shipping room and handled the paper and tape rolls that ultimately CE 142 was constructed from (as proven by comparison to CE 677 which was constructed by Detective Studebaker). He also had access to the fully assembled CE 139 as a reference point to make the bag the correct width and length (without the flap).

Lieutenant Carl Day had ordered Detective Robert Lee Studebaker to take paper and tape samples from the rolls.

CE 142 was very simple to construct - Detective Studebaker was in the right location and had access to all the necessary components to make it.

The DP, FBI and WC could not prove that Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible for the construction of any paper bag.

The partial prints on CE 142 does not prove LHO had constructed the paper bag nor does it prove he was responsible for the assassination of JFK.

Discuss and "fire away" but please try keeping it on track.

My suggestion is hit "reply" or "quoting" a specific section.

I look forward to your constructive criticism.  8)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 04:09:16 AM by Tony Fratini »

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Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2018, 05:56:50 PM »

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CE 142 was the "home made" paper bag that the DP, FBI and WC believed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) had constructed from paper and 3 inch wide tape samples taken from the first floor shipping room of the TSBD likely on or before the 21/11/1963. Since the tape had to be pulled through a dispenser, it was specifically marked and wet as it was pulled through. As a consequence of this, the paper bag likely had to be constructed in situ otherwise the tape would not have been sticky. At no stage did TSBD employee Troy West (who was the main book wrapper) ever see LHO in the shipping room.

LHO would of then had to have folded the paper bag which was 38 inches x 8.5 inches (oblong shape) into a smaller size and conceal it on him when he was driven home on Thursday night (21/11/1963) by BWF to see his wife and two children who were staying at the Paine household.

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An empty paper bag is far easier to hide than the same bag containing a rifle. It would be as simple as folding it up or rolling it up. And the picture of the bag you show looks like a bag that at some point was rolled up or folded up.

While there is no reason to hide the bag from Frazier, he was, after all, going to see it the next morning, he would like to hide it from his wife and Mrs. Paine, so it would be natural to fold it up and hide it under his jacket as he rode with Frazier on Thursday evening and walked into Mrs. Paineís house.



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No one knows who moved CE 142 in situ and why it wasnt photographed in situ. This was not further investigated by the FBI nor the WC.


Probably because it wasnít immediately apparent what was pertinent evidence and what wasnít. They may have moved some boxes and other stuff, like paper bags around, while looking for the rifle and other evidence.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2018, 07:40:14 PM »
Those damn curtain rods - did they really exist?

Answer.....Definitely not!......  Option #2 is correct.....

P.S.  I believe you're chasing a "wild goose".....in pursuing the weather strip ......

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2018, 11:46:55 PM »
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An empty paper bag is far easier to hide than the same bag containing a rifle. It would be as simple as folding it up or rolling it up. And the picture of the bag you show looks like a bag that at some point was rolled up or folded up.

While there is no reason to hide the bag from Frazier, he was, after all, going to see it the next morning, he would like to hide it from his wife and Mrs. Paine, so it would be natural to fold it up and hide it under his jacket as he rode with Frazier on Thursday evening and walked into Mrs. Paineís house.



Probably because it wasnít immediately apparent what was pertinent evidence and what wasnít. They may have moved some boxes and other stuff, like paper bags around, while looking for the rifle and other evidence.

Hi Joe,

what makes you believe that it was LHO who had constructed CE 142 and not Detective Studebaker?

How can you disprove that Detective Studebaker didn't fold up CE 142 while in the wrapping room and then transported it back up to the 6th floor to continue with the processing of the crime scene on the 6th floor in the absence of Lt Day?

How then can you explain why CE 142 came into the possession of Detective Studebaker and Lt Day? Clearly they both thought it was important crime scene evidence because both men made a stop in the first floor shipping room to commence collecting non-evidence.

Seems rather odd - they have CE 142 and CE 139 and they commence collecting paper and tape? Yet, Lt Day leaves CE 142 behind with Studebaker, fails to look inside it and writes directly on it?

Why would you go to a wrapping room, with Mr Truly, while holding an unwrapped CE 139? Any guesses?

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 11:57:11 PM »
Walt,

the wooden window strip removal from the SN was kept VERY low key - the DP held onto it for 6 days despite being told by Curry to hand everything over to the FBI, there is no photograph of it being removed from the window, no one knows who brought it in and how. It also isn't mentioned in the WR and the FBI reported that it didn't have LHO's prints on it.

You see - if the window sill strip was placed into CE 142 = party over for it being made by LHO. Hence there is a "black hole" about the window sill strip.

Yet, Montgomery, in an oral history, said that it was a piece of Venetian blind! Excuse me? A Venetian blind strip just happened to be a thin piece of wood, just like the window sill strip was.

Montgomery also stated that CE 142 wasnt in the SE corner at all when he gave an oral history to Sneed.

How can one piece of crime scene evidence have such a questionable and controversial history?

Answer - it never was present in the SN in the first place. That was entirely consistent with the Detectives who arrived at an untouched SN. Just ask Captain Will Fritz.  ;D

The FBI "retrofitted" CE 142 as belonging to LHO and had to discredit the only two witnesses who saw LHO with a paper bag that morning.

We have three Detectives (Montgomery, Johnson and Studebaker) sign and date CE 142 - but not Lt Day. Since when does one write directly on crime scene evidence potentially obliterating prints? How can one explain that the signatures of the Detectiuves are all next to a partial print that no one saw on 22/11/1963?

None of these Detectives were shown CE 142 and none were asked about signing it either.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 12:04:35 AM by Tony Fratini »

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 11:57:11 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2018, 12:30:19 AM »

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what makes you believe that it was LHO who had constructed CE 142 and not Detective Studebaker?


Oswald made an explained visit to Mrs. Paineís home on a Thursday night. Why not go on a Friday night so he can spend the whole weekend with his wife and children, as he had always done before. Why only spend one night?

The obvious answer? So, he can get his rifle and sneak it into work in a long paper bag. Oswald being seen with a long paper package by two witnesses, a long paper package being found in the building, fits with this scenario.



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How can you disprove that Detective Studebaker didn't fold up CE 142 while in the wrapping room and then transported it back up to the 6th floor to continue with the processing of the crime scene on the 6th floor in the absence of Lt Day?



No. Any more than I can disprove that Detective Studebaker didnít bring the bag into the building with him. Or any number of other possible suggestions.



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How then can you explain why CE 142 came into the possession of Detective Studebaker and Lt Day? Clearly they both thought it was important crime scene evidence because both men made a stop in the first floor shipping room to commence collecting non-evidence.

Seems rather odd - they have CE 142 and CE 139 and they commence collecting paper and tape? Yet, Lt Day leaves CE 142 behind with Studebaker, fails to look inside it and writes directly on it?

Why would you go to a wrapping room, with Mr Truly, while holding an unwrapped CE 139? Any guesses?



The first-floor shipping room would did contain evidence. Once it was realized the paper bag may have contained the rifle, they would want to check it Oswald made it or had it made from materials in the building. They would ask questions about this and would want to collect samples of the shipping paper and tape to see if it matched the bag. A natural part of doing an investigation.

You seem to reject the obvious, common sense explanations and immediately assume any action must be a part of the frame up of Oswald.



If Oswald was a patsy, they knew about this long about it before noon November 22. They didnít just decide on this at the last second. They would have Oswald bring in a long enough package into work that day and use that package to claim his guilt. Not make a package at the last minute.

Question:

If there was a conspiracy, which makes more sense:

a.   Instruct Oswald to bring in a package that is 38 inches long.

b.   Instruct Oswald to bring in a package that is 30 inches long.

Bring in members of the Dallas Police Department into the conspiracy, when this is not necessary. This risks exposure if they bulk.

Instruct the detectives to make the bag at the last second. They just have to risk being caught and just have to hope that no one wanders into the shipping room at the wrong time and asks ďWhat the hell are they doing?Ē. Maybe by some police officer who was not brought into the conspiracy.


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2018, 12:56:37 AM »
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Oswald made an explained visit to Mrs. Paineís home on a Thursday night. Why not go on a Friday night so he can spend the whole weekend with his wife and children, as he had always done before. Why only spend one night?

The obvious answer? So, he can get his rifle and sneak it into work in a long paper bag. Oswald being seen with a long paper package by two witnesses, a long paper package being found in the building, fits with this scenario.




No. Any more than I can disprove that Detective Studebaker didnít bring the bag into the building with him. Or any number of other possible suggestions.




The first-floor shipping room would did contain evidence. Once it was realized the paper bag may have contained the rifle, they would want to check it Oswald made it or had it made from materials in the building. They would ask questions about this and would want to collect samples of the shipping paper and tape to see if it matched the bag. A natural part of doing an investigation.

You seem to reject the obvious, common sense explanations and immediately assume any action must be a part of the frame up of Oswald.



If Oswald was a patsy, they knew about this long about it before noon November 22. They didnít just decide on this at the last second. They would have Oswald bring in a long enough package into work that day and use that package to claim his guilt. Not make a package at the last minute.

Question:

If there was a conspiracy, which makes more sense:

a.   Instruct Oswald to bring in a package that is 38 inches long.

b.   Instruct Oswald to bring in a package that is 30 inches long.

Bring in members of the Dallas Police Department into the conspiracy, when this is not necessary. This risks exposure if they bulk.

Instruct the detectives to make the bag at the last second. They just have to risk being caught and just have to hope that no one wanders into the shipping room at the wrong time and asks ďWhat the hell are they doing?Ē. Maybe by some police officer who was not brought into the conspiracy.


Joe,

since when does an impromptu visit to see his family, to mend a heated argument over the phone with Marina, equate to killing the POTUS?

No one saw LHO with CE 142.

No need to Joe, the FBI proved he took the paper and tape from the rolls of the TSBD and as admitted by Lt Day.

No one knew how and who placed the rifle in the TSBD at the time the rifle was found. 

What are Studebaker and Day doing in the wrapping room when they had the evidence with them?

Neither Studebaker nor Lt Day framed anyone with CE 142.

Not at all - the presence of the rifle anywhere in the TSBD was all that was required by a conspirator to implicate LHO in the assassination.

CE 142 was constructed for non nefarious means - to take CE 139 out of the TSBD.

Studebaker and Day were Law enforcement officers who had CE 139 with them, what is the big deal of wrapping it in paper to transport it to City Hall?

Have you read what Day told Sneed? It strongly implied, he was thinking of wrapping CE 139 up but decided it wasnt a good idea.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2018, 02:33:48 AM »

Oswald made the bag.

Oswald's rifle bag had Oswald's prints.
Oswald's rifle bag was made too small, if the DP had the rifle and as much paper as they needed why would they make the bag too small? Doh!
The rifle ad that Oswald sent away was for a 36 inch rifle so Oswald logically made the bag 38 inches.
The rifle bag was stained.
The rifle bag was excessively folded.
The rifle bag was crumpled.
Oswald denied putting the rifle bag on the back seat.
Oswald said his bag only contained his lunch but Oswald told Frazier the bag contained curtain rods.


Btw from the thread title I thought this was a Poll thread, can you change this thread to a Poll?



JohnM
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 02:52:05 AM by John Mytton »

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2018, 02:33:48 AM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 04:16:32 AM »
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Oswald made the bag.

Oswald's rifle bag had Oswald's prints.
Oswald's rifle bag was made too small, if the DP had the rifle and as much paper as they needed why would they make the bag too small? Doh!
The rifle ad that Oswald sent away was for a 36 inch rifle so Oswald logically made the bag 38 inches.
The rifle bag was stained.
The rifle bag was excessively folded.
The rifle bag was crumpled.
Oswald denied putting the rifle bag on the back seat.
Oswald said his bag only contained his lunch but Oswald told Frazier the bag contained curtain rods.


Btw from the thread title I thought this was a Poll thread, can you change this thread to a Poll?



JohnM

JohnM,

Myth 1

pay close attention - the paper taken from the roll by Studebaker was at least 41 inches - more than enough to wrap an assembled CE 139. Its task was to take the rifle to City Hall in a concealed manner which was just a few minutes away.

Myth 2

See above.

Myth 3

I showed that the wrapping benches had stains on them.

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Myth 4

Excessively folded compared to what? Studebaker folded it, to take it upstairs.


Myth 5

Crumpled by whom? Studebaker or Montgomery? Note there is no tapered or taped end on CE 142. Dan Rather's representation is a fraud.

Myth 6

Back seat? You have LMR's word only and she can not collaborate the observation and her brother could have easily embellished the story.

Myth 7

Same issue as above - he said vs he said.

Oswald's prints? Mayfield will argue with you that the FBI fingerprinting experts can make mistakes - costly ones at that.

It is not a poll thread - I want feedback and reasons why I am wrong.

Offline Zeon Wasinsky

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 05:02:11 AM »
We should try some experiments to see how easy it is to take paper from a roll with bare hands, and tape from the roll, with bare hands, and fold the paper several times and the tape somehow too, and place them inside our jacket, and then take them out later, and unfold the paper, and lay out the tape, and then begin making the bag , and then putting the rifle disassembled and all that into the bag, and folding the end of the bag, and the carrying the bag several times, lifting it and placing it down and lifting it again, removing the parts from the bag, or the garbage bag the parts were wrapped in, removing that from the bag..

and then see how if the single solitary print at top and 1 palm print at bottom bag can be demonstated to be anywhere near probable.

We will  not count any of   the 37 attempts that might have some malfunction of ripping the bag, or leaving an oil stain, or leaving some clear indent into the paper, or prints other than the 1 single finger print at top and 1 palm print at bottom.

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Re: Who constructed CE 142 - Lee Harvey Oswald or a Detective from the DP?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 05:02:11 AM »