Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?  (Read 25153 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1824
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2019, 01:42:06 AM »
Advertisement
Connally's WC testimony conflicts with a first-shot-SBT. 

I agree. His testimony supports a second shot SBT.  Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2019, 01:42:06 AM »


Offline Eddie Haymaker

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2019, 01:44:37 AM »

"the first shot didn't hit me"

"the second shot DID hit me"

It's clear as day

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1824
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2019, 01:47:05 AM »
"the first shot didn't hit me"

"the second shot DID hit me"

It's clear as day

Absolutely!  Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2019, 01:47:05 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1239
    • SPMLaw
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2019, 03:15:02 AM »
I agree. His testimony supports a second shot SBT.  Thumb1:
Not exactly. It does not destroy a second shot SBT but it doesn't exactly support it. He said that when he turned around to see if JFK was ok he was unable to see him. That suggests that JFK  was not where he had been on previous occasions when JBC had turned around to speak with JFK.  It is difficult to understand why he could not have turned around and seen JFK before z193 because JFK is quite far to the right with his right elbow on the top of the right side of the car. JBC had made that turn easily to chat with the President during the trip through Dallas. More to the point, there is no attempt to even look at JFK prior to about z250.

Offline Jerry Organ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2286
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2019, 03:54:26 AM »
She was a two shot witness in the sense that she could recall only two shots for sure.  She did say to the FBI that she could not be sure that there were not additional shots.

In any event, she is still a "JFK reacted to the first shot" witness. 

But her "first shot" is still the one before the fatal head shot. It's actually the second shot in most LN three-shot scenarios. She's misplaced the first of the three shots (the one many term the "backfire" or "firecracker") because nothing unusual happened (like a person reacting as if they had been shot) and the crowd behaved as they did before the first shot.

Quote
Your speculation that the first shot did not register with her is not evidence. Your premise that someone can hear an ear-shattering noise and then another a few seconds later and forget that they heard the first one is, on its face, a bit absurd.  You would need some empirical evidence that this can and does occur often in humans.

Meanwhile, your theory requires that "two shot" witnesses fail to register your Z271 second shot. This is after the crowd had (per your theory) been alerted to the President reacting on your Z195 first shot, so they should therefore be immediately concerned about any subsequent shots or happenings in the car.

Quote
As far as I can determine, Jean Newman was the woman to the left of the space and to the right of the man with the black hat (Ernie Brandt) in between the lamppost and the Thornton sign. She was opposite the President at about z197.  Newman said that the first shot occurred as the motorcade had just passed her.  That puts the first shot in the same place that dozens of others put it.

Roberdeau locates her between Templin and Burney. In any event, she supposedly is in that small group. She could still see the front of the limousine by Z200.



Jean Newman is a two-shot witness. The jump-and-duck shot occurred when "the motorcade had just passed" and before the head shot. Her Nov 24th affidavit states: "A car carrying the President and another person had just passed her when she heard a report and saw the President jump, raising his hands to his chest area." The SBT Z223 shot fits with what Jean Newman saw.

Quote
In fact, not a single witness puts the shot anywhere near z160 where you put it and others definitively put it much later (for example: Hughes stopped filming about z187 and said he stopped before it;

The Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy said they turned their heads to their right upon hearing the first shot. The Connallys begin doing so in the Z160s and Jackie at Z172.

Hughes says he stopped filming about five seconds before the shots were heard; but Z185 is about 1/2 second before your theory's first shot at Z195. Seems unlikely Hughes would characterize 1/2 seconds as five seconds.

What if Hughes (like other witnesses) wasn't that alarmed by a late-Z150 missed shot (and so didn't include its moment in time in his recollections)? A second shot at ca.Z223 is over two seconds from when Hughes stopped filming.

Quote
Betzner said it was after his z186 photo;

Betzner said he was looking down to wind his camera when he heard the first of two shots he later recalled, the latter one being the head shot. So the winding-the-camera shot he heard could be the shot heard before the head shot. In a three-shot scenario, Betzner has lost track of one of those shots.



As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in Z207, he is still lowering his camera and is not looking down. Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter, it is an argument that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed SBT shot at Z223.

Quote
motorcade witnesses said the VP car had just finished its turn and the VP security car was almost finished its turn - both are still turning at z191).

At Z160, the VP car is about 70? turned off of Houston Street. I would imagine they would be looking down Elm and not dead straight ahead through the windshield.

Quote
And where do you see that occur before z206?  His arm appears to have dropped slightly by z206 from its highest position at z193.

Include the amount it dropped while he was behind the sign. This is very near to Dishong and something that impressed her. She said a loud noise occurred when Kennedy was very near to her and after he had dropped his arm.

Quote
A "horrible ear-shattering noise" was forgotten within 3 seconds? What on earth are you basing that on? This is not only speculation, it is speculation that is contrary to normal human experience.  People observe/hear things and just because they don't understand immediately what caused it doesn't mean it vanishes from their consciousness.

It's better to believe "two shot" witnesses would lose track of your second shot at Z271? After how alert they are and concerned having heard and supposedly witnessed a bullet strike on your theory's first shot at Z195?

Quote
June Dishong was about 4-5 feet from Jean Newman - a one-person space plus one person between them, which puts the President directly opposite her at about z200.

She sees even more than Newman of the front of the car at Z200.

Quote
She did not give a statement to the FBI but she did write out a vivid description of the events - undated but apparently written shortly after the events.  It came to light only after her death in 1998.  You have given part of what she said but here is a bit more to provide context:
The source is from a post by Don Roberdeau who is pretty reliable.

When she says "another shot", it can't mean the second shot because no one threw themselves to the ground until the head shot.

Quote

?? That's your take?  He was smiling and waving - hardly looking like he had been shot!! Westbrook was to the immediate left of June Dishong so she was opposite JFK around z198-200.
She was oblique to JFK, as was Dishong and Jean Newman.

"After the first shot was fired I saw the President's hands gradually come up".


Between Z162 and Z193, the President's right hand gradually raises up fairly high ("I thought he was going to hold up his hands and say 'Ah, you got me.'")
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 04:01:19 AM by Jerry Organ »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2019, 03:54:26 AM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3725
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2019, 04:23:14 AM »
  I see just the opposite.
You see what you want.

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1239
    • SPMLaw
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2019, 04:33:40 AM »
But her "first shot" is still the one before the fatal head shot.
How do you figure that? She never mentions the head shot and she admitted she was not sure if there were more than two shots. Maybe she just wasn't counting after the first shot because her mind was focused on what she was seeing rather than counting sounds. Maybe the shot that she did not distinguish as a separate shot was one of the last two that were closer together according to the the vast majority of the witnesses.

Quote
It's actually the second shot in most LN three-shot scenarios. She's misplaced the first of the three shots (the one many term the "backfire" or "firecracker") because nothing unusual happened (like a person reacting as if they had been shot) and the crowd behaved as they did before the first shot.
It is also the last shot so why could it not be that they did not distinguish between 2 and 3? It is not about "misplacing" shot sounds. It is about not counting them or not distinguishing separate shots.

Quote
Meanwhile, your theory requires that "two shot" witnesses fail to register your Z271 second shot. This is after the crowd had (per your theory) been alerted to the President reacting on your Z195 first shot, so they should therefore be immediately concerned about any subsequent shots or happenings in the car.
No. It just means that they heard all the shots but were not focused on counting them or recalling a pattern.  Or maybe they just recalled shots that had some visual effect. If they were focused on what they saw and did not see any effects from the first of the last two shots, maybe after the fact.


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2019, 04:33:40 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1824
Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2019, 07:30:34 AM »
Not exactly. It does not destroy a second shot SBT but it doesn't exactly support it. He said that when he turned around to see if JFK was ok he was unable to see him. That suggests that JFK  was not where he had been on previous occasions when JBC had turned around to speak with JFK.  It is difficult to understand why he could not have turned around and seen JFK before z193 because JFK is quite far to the right with his right elbow on the top of the right side of the car. JBC had made that turn easily to chat with the President during the trip through Dallas. More to the point, there is no attempt to even look at JFK prior to about z250.

What he said was that he never turned around far enough. And we can see in the Zapruder film that he didn't. Dale Myers has Connally turning sharply to the right beginning at Z157 and reaching 48 degrees of right rotation at Z193.