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Author Topic: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA  (Read 6016 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2019, 04:31:27 AM »

I don't know who rotates their torso other than from their spine.


Everyone rotates their torso around their longitudinal axis.

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If the spine rotates around some notional body axis, then the spine would have to physically move laterally every time we turned,

That is correct. Connally's spine moved laterally to the left when he rotated to the right. Not much, but move it did.

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which means that the hips would have to move.

Not necessarily. But I'm not arguing that Connally never moved his hips either.

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What you need to do is show us a video of someone turning right 30 degrees from forward and show us how their right shoulder moves left 3 inches. 

Nope.

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I am just saying that:

1. suppose he was closer to 10.2 cm inboard, say 13 cm (5.1 inches). and say
2. the first shot struck JFK in the neck at z195 (which, unlike the phantom missed shot at z155 or so which no one observed and which conflicts with at least 3 large bodies of mutually consistent evidence, fits the evidence) when the angle from the SN to the car direction was about 13 or 14 degrees.

Then the bullet through JFK's neck crossed the plane of JBC's jumpseat an additional 14-15 cm further left.  If JBC's spine was 13 cm left of JFK's then the bullet would have passed to the left of JBC's spine by 1-2 cm.   But at z195, JBC was turned so the plane of his back was aligned generally in the same direction as the right to left bullet path so the bullet would not necessarily have struck his back.  We know it didn't.  But that was not the only part of his body that was on the left side of the middle of his jumpseat.  And there was a wound on his left side.  What is "invalid" about that?

The SBT tries to drive a square peg into a round hole.  No one said it had occurred and many said it didn't.  There is another explanation that does not conflict with the evidence but is still consistent with the overwhelming evidence that all shots were fired using Oswald's MC.

The SBT does not try to drive a square peg into a round hole, but I know something that does.






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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2019, 04:31:27 AM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2019, 05:23:15 AM »

Your 3D picture sure looks like a bullet through JFK's neck to JBC's right armpit goes left to right.
Not this again? You think I'm would use a left-to-right trajectory?



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So tell us how much he is turned in your graphic and why.  I'll go with your graphic.

Connally is turned so as to reflect his appearance in the Zapruder film.

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I was going by the sightlines from Zapruder that puts JFK between the left handhold and the spare tire enclosure in z193. One can also see the top right corner of the rear seat back behind JFK's right shoulder, so he is not as far right as possible.  But I stand to be corrected if you can show otherwise.



I think that's shadow fall onto the seat top, not a portion of the seat-back between Kennedy and the car's interior. So that doesn't justify moving Kennedy inboard more than he was.

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The distance from JFK's throat exit to the jumpseat back is 19 inches if I recall correctly.  I will check it. What do you say it is? You should be able to do that from your 3D model. You just draw a couple of arrows between different points at different angles and say there is a problem. Show us the numbers and how you arrive at them.

Whatever you're using, it's not helping your 3D work to match what's seen in the film.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2019, 12:57:11 PM »
Not this again? You think I'm would use a left-to-right trajectory?

I can't tell. It sure looks like JBC's right armpit would be right of JFK's midline in your drawing.
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Connally is turned so as to reflect his appearance in the Zapruder film.

I agree if you are using z224 positions. So show how that puts his right armpit left of JFK's midline.  The angle of a shot from the SN was about 9 degrees right to left at z224.  I was showing the position at z197.

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I think that's shadow fall onto the seat top, not a portion of the seat-back between Kennedy and the car's interior. So that doesn't justify moving Kennedy inboard more than he was.
So how far from the inside of the car was his midline? I can't measure that on your drawing.

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Whatever you're using, it's not helping your 3D work to match what's seen in the film.
I'm still waiting for your numbers or measureable views. Show us the overhead view with the angle to the SN through JFK and JBC.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 04:01:33 AM by Andrew Mason »

Online Rob Caprio

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2019, 09:15:49 PM »
Brother Rob, we both know there is no convincing you. The bullet exited JFK's throat at 2000fps. Where do you think it went? JBC was directly in front of JFK.

A second shooter fired from where? The trajectories of the wounds tell you somewhere in this theory is an assassin firing two shots with three shells on the floor.

Cite the evidence that shows the bullet "exited JFK's throat at 2000fps". Go ahead. I'll wait.

It is not my job to figure out from where. Only to point out that it happened based on the evidence.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2019, 09:29:44 PM »
Brother Rob, we both know there is no convincing you. The bullet exited JFK's throat at 2000fps. Where do you think it went? JBC was directly in front of JFK.


2000 f/s is at near muzzle velocity (2100 f/s). That's too fast. The bullet exited JFK's throat at about 1700 f/s. It yawed upon exiting and then struck Connally at that velocity relatively sideon. It struck his rib at about 1400 f/s.

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2019, 09:29:44 PM »


Online Rob Caprio

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2019, 09:35:01 PM »
2000 f/s is at near muzzle velocity (2100 f/s). That's too fast. The bullet exited JFK's throat at about 1700 f/s. It yawed upon exiting and then struck Connally at that velocity relatively sideon. It struck his rib at about 1400 f/s.

Could you please cite your source for it exiting at "about 1700 f/s"?

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #176 on: January 11, 2019, 01:45:53 AM »
Could you please cite your source for it exiting at "about 1700 f/s"?

I was wrong. It was actually closer to 1800 f/s. From the WC testimony of Dr. Alfred Olivier:

Dr. OLIVIER. We determined the distance on various people by locating this anatomical region and using people of various sizes we found that regardless of general body build, the distance penetrated was around 13 1/2 to 14 1/2 cm. As a consequence, I used gelatin blocks 20 percent gelatin cut at 13 1/2 cm lengths and also used horsemeat and goatmeat placed in a box so that--this was a little harder to get the exact length but that varied between 13 1/2 and 14 1/2 cm. of muscle tissue.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that simulate, then, the portion of the President's body through which the bullet is reported to have passed, as closely as you could for your testing purposes?
Dr. OLIVIER. As closely as we could for these test purposes; yes.
..................
Mr. SPECTER. What measurement was obtained as to the entrance velocity of the bullet at the distance of 60 yards which you described?
Dr. OLIVIER. The striking velocity at an average of three shots was 1,904 feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the average exit velocity on each of the substances used?
Dr. OLIVIER. For the gelatin the average exit velocity was 1,779 feet persecond. The horsemeat, the average exit velocity was 1,798 feet per second. And the goatmeat the average exit velocity was 1,772 feet per second.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm

Online Steve Howsley

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #177 on: January 11, 2019, 01:49:57 AM »
I was wrong. It was actually closer to 1800 f/s.

Tim, Isn't it nice to occasionally be 'in error' when the actual evidence strengthens your position.

 Thumb1:

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #177 on: January 11, 2019, 01:49:57 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #178 on: January 11, 2019, 02:28:36 AM »
Tim, Isn't it nice to occasionally be 'in error' when the actual evidence strengthens your position.

 Thumb1:

Give me time to get used to the feeling, since this is the first time I've ever been in error.  ;D  ;)



Damn, I miss the old emoticons.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #179 on: January 11, 2019, 05:54:15 PM »
The true trajectory of the bullet has it exiting from just to the right of Jfk's midline and then traveling to the point entry on JBC'S back, which was most definitely to the right of his midline.
I am just pointing out that it is only true if you use ITEK's maximum distance that JBC was left of JFK's midline and add at least 3 inches. And you still have a problem fitting that to the witness evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot. An alternative explanation that does not conflict with consistent and well corroborated witness observations is available. It has the first bullet going to JBC's left side.

It is interesting, by the way that Dr. Olivier did not rule out JBC being hit in the back by a pristine bullet.