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Author Topic: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?  (Read 2373 times)

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2018, 11:38:04 PM »
Not exactly "subjective" or "guesswork".  We have evidence  that bears on this issue. We see JFK reacting to his throat wound by z224/225 when he first appears from behind the sign, so the shot was before then.

We also have witnesses along Elm who identified the location of President relative to where they were standing at the time of the first shot.  Those positions are all pretty consistent and fit with what witnesses in the motorcade said about where they were when the first shot occurred and consistent with where the photographers Hugh Betzner and Phil Willis put the first shot: Somewhere between z190 and z200.

I'm talking about people who claim to be able to tell when the first shot occurred by looking at the film.  I would also disagree that the witnesses are "pretty consistent", but that's a different issue.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2018, 11:58:53 PM »
That's kind of sort of what I mean.  For example, I've read people say that the reason his head goes quickly over to the right before the sign comes on is because he was reacting to shots.

But elsewhere, there's a more plausible reason why it happened - those group of clapping women over on the curb yelled out, "Mr. President...over here!" and that's what he did. He looked over there and then waved and then his arm kind of freezes in mid wave until the first shot.
The turn to the right and the wave toward Mary Woodward is exactly what she described the President did immediately before that first "horrible ear-shattering noise".  No a single person said he reacted to the first shot by smiling and waving let alone for 3 seconds.  They said he reacted immediately in a way that suggested he was hit by it. There are over 20 such witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot.

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Look through the footage of the parade before Dealey.  The guy was was doing all manner of things - waving, turning, fluffing his his hair, leaning forward, talking to Connally, etc. There's even a clip where he waves and his arm stops in mid air just like it looks as he reappears from the sign.

Nothing violent starts until his hands snap up in front of face, which is where the first shot starts.
So you think he had a premonition of the first shot a few frames before it hit him?:


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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2018, 11:58:53 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2018, 12:10:49 AM »
I'm talking about people who claim to be able to tell when the first shot occurred by looking at the film.  I would also disagree that the witnesses are "pretty consistent", but that's a different issue.
Ok. I agree that one needs more than the zfilm alone to determine when either of the first two shots occurred. 

On the issue of witnesses, witness testimony rarely matches perfectly and is rarely exact.  The question is whether the witness evidence is consistent with a particular shot time or not. 

According to Betzner and Hughes the first shot was after they exposed their film.  They are consistent with a first shot after z186.  The witnesses in the President's car, the President's security car, the  VP car, VP security car, and the Cabell car put the first shot 1. after the president's car had gone some distance down Elm street 2. after the President's security car had finished the turn and was proceeding down Elm St. 3. just after the VP car had completed the turn 4. just before the VP security car was about to finish the turn 5. as the Cabell car was facing the TSBD.  Those are all consistent with a first shot after z190 and inconsistent with a shot earlier than that.  Witnesses along Elm St. such as Mary Woodward said the first shot was just as JFK went by. She was standing opposite the President at about z192. Others around her said much the same thing.

Offline Michael Walton

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2018, 12:26:40 AM »
The turn to the right and the wave toward Mary Woodward is exactly what she described the President did immediately before that first "horrible ear-shattering noise".  No a single person said he reacted to the first shot by smiling and waving let alone for 3 seconds.  They said he reacted immediately in a way that suggested he was hit by it. There are over 20 such witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot.
So you think he had a premonition of the first shot a few frames before it hit him?:



Here are two other photos taken prior to the shooting.  They look almost identical to that Z frame you have here.

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jfk-final-minutes-03.jpg

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/john-f-kennedy-papers-assassination.jpg

Now tell me...

Why would anything in that Z frame tell you it's sinister and the other two are not?

As I said before, he was moving around throughout the parade just like the Z frame you have and just like the images above. It's only 1/18 of a second later that the first shot was fired, hitting him in the throat and then the next shot hitting him in the back pushing him slightly forward, that you see him change from a hanging wave to being injured.

As I said before, he was NOT hit earlier than that.  The oak tree was blocking the view then and the planners, if they had started earlier, would have been the biggest dumb asses on Earth to blow the story by doing so earlier.

As for witnesses, there are too many to mention instances from that day where one person said they saw this while someone else next to them said they saw or heard something completely different.

The visual proof is in the film.

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2018, 12:26:40 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2018, 03:32:22 AM »
Here are two other photos taken prior to the shooting.  They look almost identical to that Z frame you have here.

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jfk-final-minutes-03.jpg

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/john-f-kennedy-papers-assassination.jpg

Now tell me...

Why would anything in that Z frame tell you it's sinister and the other two are not?
First of all, they are hardly 'identical'. Your two photos show a markedly different facial expression. He is not smiing in z224 (but was smiing z193, less than 2 seconds earlier). In your photos the hands look much more natural.  Second, there is no evidence that JFK was shot before your photos were taken whereas there is not only evidence that there was a shot about a second or two before z225 but also evidence that he reacted to it by bringing his hands to his chest/neck and assuming a blank stare, just as we see in z224.

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As I said before, he was moving around throughout the parade just like the Z frame you have and just like the images above. It's only 1/18 of a second later that the first shot was fired, hitting him in the throat and then the next shot hitting him in the back pushing him slightly forward, that you see him change from a hanging wave to being injured.

As I said before, he was NOT hit earlier than that.  The oak tree was blocking the view then and the planners, if they had started earlier, would have been the biggest dumb asses on Earth to blow the story by doing so earlier.
The whole point of this thread was to show that the oak tree was NOT blocking the view from the SN. If you disagree then tell us what is wrong with my analysis (first post).

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As for witnesses, there are too many to mention instances from that day where one person said they saw this while someone else next to them said they saw or heard something completely different.
Too many? Give us some examples. There are a few examples where one person said something that was different but invariably these oddball accounts are never corroborated by anyone else.

Offline Michael Walton

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2018, 11:22:10 AM »
First of all, they are hardly 'identical'. Your two photos show a markedly different facial expression....

First of all, they are hardly 'identical'. Your two photos show a markedly different facial expression. He is not smiing in z224 (but was smiing z193, less than 2 seconds earlier). In your photos the hands look much more natural.  Second, there is no evidence that JFK was shot before your photos were taken whereas there is not only evidence that there was a shot about a second or two before z225 but also evidence that he reacted to it by bringing his hands to his chest/neck and assuming a blank stare, just as we see in z224.

You're missing the point. The point is that here are other examples of his arm being raised from a wave like you see in the Z film.

Honestly, we don't know what his expression is in that Z film frame.  As I said elsewhere, the Z film clarity is not great.

Regarding the blank stare - really? That's news to me. If you watch the film, nowhere do we see that happening.  He's looking over to the left, the women yell out, he looks over to his right, he waves, and his arm just hangs there mid-air like the other two photos I posted above, and then the first shot hits. And you can certainly tell when he is hit the very first time too as it startles him and his hands are instinctively thrown up toward his face.

The whole point of this thread was to show that the oak tree was NOT blocking the view from the SN. If you disagree then tell us what is wrong with my analysis (first post).

This is confusing.  I'm showing that the tree DID block the 6th floor view, then it did not. And where it does not block is actually when the first shot was taken, around Z225. As I stated above, if there's a conspiracy and they want their patsy to take the fall for it, they certainly would tell the real shooters to not start firing until the car clears the oak tree obstruction.

Too many? Give us some examples. There are a few examples where one person said something that was different but invariably these oddball accounts are never corroborated by anyone else.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/witnesses.htm

Read the Bill Newman one.  He was mere feet from the limo.


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I made this video almost a year ago. It makes no sense that he was hit before where this video shows he was first hit. And I don't care what the women down there say - they don't know what the hell they're talking about because none of them were expecting any of this to happen. And see other crazy witness "testimony" above...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxa3NqTEpScWNQZnc/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 11:39:51 AM by Michael Walton »

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2018, 11:22:10 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2018, 02:09:02 PM »

This is confusing.  I'm showing that the tree DID block the 6th floor view, then it did not. And where it does not block is actually when the first shot was taken, around Z225. As I stated above, if there's a conspiracy and they want their patsy to take the fall for it, they certainly would tell the real shooters to not start firing until the car clears the oak tree obstruction.
It is confusing only if you didn't read my post. If you read it, you will understand why I am saying that you are wrong: JFK was clear of the oak tree by z195. In other words, your assertion that the tree DID block the 6th floor view until z225 is not correct. You seem to be just making that up.


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Read the Bill Newman one.  He was mere feet from the limo.[/b]
What is crazy about it?  The use of the term "jumped up"? "standing up"?   No one asked him what he meant by those terms so we really don't know what he was trying to say. I am not that familiar with Texas expressions, but I think I can smell what you're stepping in....

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2018, 02:53:50 AM »
First of all, they are hardly 'identical'. Your two photos show a markedly different facial expression. He is not smiing in z224 (but was smiing z193, less than 2 seconds earlier). In your photos the hands look much more natural.  Second, there is no evidence that JFK was shot before your photos were taken whereas there is not only evidence that there was a shot about a second or two before z225 but also evidence that he reacted to it by bringing his hands to his chest/neck and assuming a blank stare, just as we see in z224.
 The whole point of this thread was to show that the oak tree was NOT blocking the view from the SN. If you disagree then tell us what is wrong with my analysis (first post).
 Too many? Give us some examples. There are a few examples where one person said something that was different but invariably these oddball accounts are never corroborated by anyone else.

there is no evidence that JFK was shot before your photos were taken whereas there is not only evidence that there was a shot about a second or two before z225

Two seconds prior to Z 225 =  Z 189.....   The tree obstructed the view  between the window and JFK at Z 189.....

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2018, 02:53:50 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2018, 05:05:02 AM »
there is no evidence that JFK was shot before your photos were taken whereas there is not only evidence that there was a shot about a second or two before z225

Two seconds prior to Z 225 =  Z 189.....   The tree obstructed the view  between the window and JFK at Z 189.....
So what about z195? I have shown that JFK was visible from the SN clear of the oak tree at z195. That is 30 frames or 1.65 seconds before z225. There is evidence that the first shot was just before z202 (Phil Wilis) and a lot of evidence that it was after z190 (motorcade witnesses, Betzner, others along Elm). Rosemary Willis appears to react to something at z202 to 205 turning rapidly towrd the TSBD. She said she looked back when she heard the first shot. Jack Ready said he turned around immediately upon hearing the first shot. He begins turning at z199 when he releases his right hand from the right front handhold on the SSsecurity car.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 05:07:37 AM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2018, 12:53:02 AM »
So what about z195? I have shown that JFK was visible from the SN clear of the oak tree at z195. That is 30 frames or 1.65 seconds before z225. There is evidence that the first shot was just before z202 (Phil Wilis) and a lot of evidence that it was after z190 (motorcade witnesses, Betzner, others along Elm). Rosemary Willis appears to react to something at z202 to 205 turning rapidly towrd the TSBD. She said she looked back when she heard the first shot. Jack Ready said he turned around immediately upon hearing the first shot. He begins turning at z199 when he releases his right hand from the right front handhold on the SSsecurity car.

There is evidence that the first shot was just before z202 (Phil Wilis) and a lot of evidence that it was after z190

Have you seen page 102 WR?  The Lincoln would have just emerged from behind the tree at Frame 210...  Nobody could have aimed a rifle at JFK from that SE corner window prior to Z 210.....   And that ignores the FACT that it requires several seconds to acquire the MOVING target and squeeze the trigger..... A rifle cannot be fired the very instant the target appears.... Do you understand? 

 

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