Author Topic: Re: Logic #1: Carcano (C2766) instead of "M1" is an indicator of no conspiracy.  (Read 32864 times)

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Online Ross Lidell

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Logic #1: Carcano (C2766) is an indication of no conspiracy to assassinate JFK


JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theorists insist that Lee Harvey Oswald did NOT order, purchase, own and possess the Carcano rifle C2766. They DON'T accept that Oswald used it to fire the shots that killed President John F. Kennedy. However, they DO accept the Carcano's existence. How could they not when they argue against its suitability as the assassination weapon?

The question arises: If there was a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy; why would a Carcano bolt-action rifle be selected to frame Lee Harvey Oswald as the shooter? Why not choose a semi-automatic rifle that would be more readily accepted by investigators-of-the-crime as a good weapon for an assassination by gunfire?


Lee Harvey Oswald as the shooter
?

Conspiracy Theorist's—who almost universally regard Lee Harvey Oswald as completely innocent—claim that he could not have made the kill-shots in the time frame estimated by the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee on Assassinations. It is asserted  that the Carcano was inadequate for the task of shooting President Kennedy—in the circumstances available to a 6th floor shooter—from the SE corner of the TSBD.

However, the notion that the Carcano rifle was a poor choice for the assassination shots assumes that C2766 was selected specifically for the killing of the President on Elm Street, Dealey Plaza. This would require Oswald to have obtained the rifle AFTER he could have know that JFK's Motorcade would travel past the Texas Schoolbook Depository on Friday, 22 November 1963. This is generally agreed to be from Tuesday 17 November 1963 when Dallas Newspapers published details of the President's motorcade route. With only 72 hours notice (at most), it's reasonable to conclude that Oswald used the rifle he had available to him, assuming it would be good enough for the task of killing JFK.


Lee Harvey Oswald "framed" as the shooter
?

Conspiracy Theorists belief that the Carcano C2766 was never in Lee Harvey Oswald's possession is problematical in this regard: The sequence of events and paperwork  for the Carcano rifle's purchase dates from March 1963 when the order was made using a Klein's Sporting Goods coupon from American Rifleman—February 1963 edition. The earliest that conspirators could have known any useful details about JFK's Texas trip was after 5 June 1963. On that day; JFK met with Vice-President Johnson and Governor Connally at the Hotel Cortez in El Paso, Texas and discussed a trip to Texas later in the year—most likely November.  

Leaving that aside; and making an unwarranted assumption that assassination conspirators had knowledge of decisions made in the White House or Secret Service: If they could have known significant details of the November trip to Texas (including Dallas) as early as March 1963; why would they choose a Carcano rifle as the assassination weapon?


The best rifle to frame Oswald with?

The conspirators would have been aware of Oswald's marksmanship record in the US Marine Corps. His achievement in making the rank of Sharpshooter was with the M1 Garand: A semi-automatic rifle that could fire shots rapidly—specifically 40-50 rounds a minute. The rifle used a clip that contained eight (8) bullets.

Choosing the M1 Garand rifle as the assassination weapon (to frame ex-Marine Sharpshooter, Lee Harvey Oswald) would have several advantages:

(1.) Rapid fire capability would eliminate any potential argument--by critics of any post assassination investigation—that the number and timing of shots fired was "impossible". The number of shots able to be fired by the M1 Garand—in the time period when JFK was a target on Elm Street, Dealey Plaza from the 6th floor Sniper's perch—would definitely be more than three (3) and as many as eight (8).

(2.) The M1 Garand's rapid rate-of-fire could mask the sound of other shooters—directed by the plotters—firing from different locations; logically with other "M1" rifles.

(3.) With eight (8) bullets fired: Shots made by other shooters from different locations (directions) that hit JFK from the front could be passed-off as caused by ricochets; something difficult to disprove.

(4.) Investigators would invoke Oswald's training, skill and experience with the M1 Garand; buttressing the argument that he possessed the capability to have fired the shots that killed President Kennedy. Unquestionably; the M1 Garand is the appropriate rifle that conspirators would select to frame the ex-Marine, Lee Harvey Oswald, as the assassin of President Kennedy.


Conclusion:

Conspiracy Theorists cannot explain how and when the Carcano C2766 was "attached" to Oswald without his knowledge. However, if this was done; choosing a different (superior) rifle could also have been achieved through Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago Illinois. The method of purchase would remain the same: American Rifleman advertisement, Hidell alias, Money Order, Klein's Sporting Goods inventory, shipping to PO Box 2915 Dallas, Texas. The M1 Garand was available in the same Klein's advertisement that featured the Carcano.

Assassination plotters would have available to them details of Oswald's marksmanship ability that were contained in his military records. Deciding to frame the ex-Marine, Lee Harvey Oswald, with a Carcano (with which he was unfamiliar before March 1963) instead of an M1 Garand (with which he was very familiar) makes no sense. It does make sense that Lee Harvey Oswald—using the alias Hidell—selected, ordered, paid for, received, owned and possessed the Carcano rifle (C2766). He chose it, in March 1963, to assassinate General Edwin Walker in April 1963; assuming the murder would only require one (1) shot.

When, seven (7) months later, at short notice; an opportunity occurred to assassinate the President of the United States; Lee Harvey Oswald used the rifle that was available to him: Carcano rifle (C2766).

Conspirators choosing to link Lee Harvey Oswald to a Carcano rifle, in preference is an M1 Garand, does not fit well with a plot to frame the ex-Marine Sharpshooter as the sole assassin of President Kennedy. It does fit with Lee Harvey Oswald, private citizen, using the rifle that was his choice—Carcano rifle C2766—to murder John F. Kennedy, President of the United States.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 01:53:47 AM
by Ross Lidell
»

Offline Mick O'brien

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On the availability of these carcanos going into civilian circulation it amazes me as to who was shipping them it must have been the U.S Government or military, and  I wonder did Walker bring a few back when he was in charge over in Italy. What was the position of M1 garrands being sold to civilians at the time? it looks like nearly every WW2 weapon to be manufactured was mentioned in this case, from the Jap rifle to the brit one etc then we have that revolver, lets be honest we have so many war trophies, around, the Randles had a lee enfield, and then we had co workers in the tsbd doing a weapons display the day before as well
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 12:55:21 AM
by Mick O'brien
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Online Michael Capasse

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ESSAY: ©Ross Lidell 2016


Conclusion:

Conspiracy Theorists cannot explain how and when the Carcano C2766 was "attached" to Oswald without his knowledge. However, if this was done; choosing a different (superior) rifle could also have been achieved through Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago Illinois. The method of purchase would remain the same: American Rifleman advertisement,  Hidell alias, Money Order, Klein's Sporting Goods inventory, shipping to PO Box 2915 Dallas, Texas.  The M1 Garand was available in the same Klein's advertisement that featured the Carcano.

Assassination plotters would have available to them details of Oswald's marksmanship ability that were contained in his military records. Deciding to frame the ex-Marine, Lee Harvey Oswald, with a Carcano (with which he was unfamiliar before March 1963) instead of an M1 Garand (with which he was very familiar) makes no sense. It does make sense that Lee Harvey Oswald—using the alias Hidell—selected, ordered, paid for, received, owned and possessed the Carcano rifle (CE2766). He chose it, in March 1963, to assassinate General Edwin Walker in April 1963; assuming the murder would only require one (1) shot.

When, unexpectedly, at short notice; an opportunity occurred to assassinate the President of the United States seven (7) months later; Lee Harvey Oswald used the rifle that was available to him: Carcano rifle (CE2766).

Conspirators choosing to link Lee Harvey Oswald to a Carcano rifle, in preference is an M1 Garand, does not fit well with a plot to frame the ex-Marine Sharpshooter as the sole assassin of President Kennedy. It does fit with Lee Harvey Oswald, private citizen, using the rifle that was his choice—Carcano rifle CE2766—to murder John F. Kennedy, President of the United States.


I've been troubled by that gun myself...
Why does a man who lives in TX and decides to shoot the POTUS from his place of work..use a gun tied to his PO BOX
[knowing he will leave it there]

I would think he can"get' an anonymous one pretty easy (1963)
How would it be if he did the same thing (you say) with an anonymous gun
I think he could just go back to work..
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 01:12:21 AM
by Michael Capasse
»

Online Tony Fratini

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JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theorists insist that Lee Harvey Oswald did NOT order, purchase, own and possess the Carcano rifle CE2766. They DON'T accept that Oswald used it to fire the shots that killed President John F. Kennedy. However, they DO accept the Carcano's existence. How could they not when they argue against its suitability as the assassination weapon?

The question arises: If there was a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy; why would a Carcano bolt-action rifle be selected to frame Lee Harvey Oswald as the shooter? Why not choose a semi-automatic rifle that would be more readily accepted by investigators-of-the-crime as a good weapon for an assassination by gunfire?


Lee Harvey Oswald as the shooter
?

Conspiracy Theorist's—who almost universally regard Lee Harvey Oswald as completely innocent—claim that he could not have made the kill-shots in the time frame estimated by the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee on Assassinations. It is asserted  that the Carcano was inadequate for the task of shooting President Kennedy—in the circumstances available to a 6th floor shooter—from the SE corner of the TSBD.

However, the notion that the Carcano rifle was a poor choice for the assassination shots assumes that CE2766 was selected specifically for the killing of the President on Elm Street, Dealey Plaza. This would require Oswald to have obtained the rifle AFTER he could have know that JFK's Motorcade would travel past the Texas Schoolbook Depository on Friday, 22 November 1963. This is generally agreed to be from Tuesday 17 November 1963 when Dallas Newspapers published details of the President's motorcade route. With only 72 hours notice (at most), it's reasonable to conclude that Oswald used the rifle he had available to him, assuming it would be good enough for the task of killing JFK.


Lee Harvey Oswald "framed" as the shooter
?

Conspiracy Theorists belief that the Carcano CE2766 was never in Lee Harvey Oswald's possession is problematical in this regard: The sequence of events and paperwork  for the Carcano rifle's purchase dates from March 1963 when the order was made using a Klein's Sporting Goods coupon from American Rifleman—February 1963 edition. The earliest that conspirators could have known any useful details about JFK's Texas trip was after 5 June 1963. On that day; JFK met with Vice-President Johnson and Governor Connally at the Hotel Cortez in El Paso, Texas and discussed a trip to Texas later in the year—most likely November.  

Leaving that aside; and making an unwarranted assumption that assassination conspirators had knowledge of decisions made in the White House or Secret Service: If they could have known significant details of the November trip to Texas (including Dallas) as early as March 1963; why would they choose a Carcano rifle as the assassination weapon?


The best rifle to frame Oswald with?

The conspirators would have been aware of Oswald's marksmanship record in the US Marine Corps. His achievement in making the rank of Sharpshooter was with the M1 Garand: A semi-automatic rifle that could fire shots rapidly—specifically 40 - 50 rounds a minute. The rifle used a clip that contained eight (8) bullets.

Choosing the M1 Garand rifle as the  assassination weapon (to frame ex-Marine Sharpshooter, Lee Harvey Oswald) would have  several advantages:

(1.) Rapid fire capability would eliminate any potential argument--by critics of any post assassination investigation—that the number and timing of shots fired was  "impossible". The number of shots able to be fired by the M1 Garand—in the time period when JFK was a target on Elm Street  Dealey Plaza from the 6th floor Sniper's perch—would definitely be more than three (3) and as many as eight (8).

 (2.) The M1 Garand's rapid rate-of-fire could mask the sound of other shooters—directed by the plotters—firing from different locations; logically with other "M1" rifles.

(3.) With eight (8) bullets fired: Shots made by other shooters from different locations (directions) that hit JFK from the front could be passed-off as caused by ricochets; something difficult to disprove.

(4.) Investigators would invoke Oswald's training, skill and experience with the M1 Garand; buttressing the argument that he possessed the capability to have fired the shots that killed President Kennedy.
Unquestionably; the M1 Garand is the appropriate rifle that conspirators would select to frame the ex-Marine, Lee Harvey Oswald, as the assassin of President Kennedy.


Conclusion:

Conspiracy Theorists cannot explain how and when the Carcano C2766 was "attached" to Oswald without his knowledge. However, if this was done; choosing a different (superior) rifle could also have been achieved through Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago Illinois. The method of purchase would remain the same: American Rifleman advertisement,  Hidell alias, Money Order, Klein's Sporting Goods inventory, shipping to PO Box 2915 Dallas, Texas.  The M1 Garand was available in the same Klein's advertisement that featured the Carcano.

Assassination plotters would have available to them details of Oswald's marksmanship ability that were contained in his military records. Deciding to frame the ex-Marine, Lee Harvey Oswald, with a Carcano (with which he was unfamiliar before March 1963) instead of an M1 Garand (with which he was very familiar) makes no sense. It does make sense that Lee Harvey Oswald—using the alias Hidell—selected, ordered, paid for, received, owned and possessed the Carcano rifle (CE2766). He chose it, in March 1963, to assassinate General Edwin Walker in April 1963; assuming the murder would only require one (1) shot.

When, unexpectedly, at short notice; an opportunity occurred to assassinate the President of the United States seven (7) months later; Lee Harvey Oswald used the rifle that was available to him: Carcano rifle (CE2766).

Conspirators choosing to link Lee Harvey Oswald to a Carcano rifle, in preference is an M1 Garand, does not fit well with a plot to frame the ex-Marine Sharpshooter as the sole assassin of President Kennedy. It does fit with Lee Harvey Oswald, private citizen, using the rifle that was his choice—Carcano rifle CE2766—to murder John F. Kennedy, President of the United States.


Do you in all honesty believe Marina?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter occurred?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know better when this happened.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I began to be worried. Perhaps even later.
Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it--you know--I was pacing around. Then I saw a note there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you look for the gun at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, "If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the exact time, but it was very late. And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he had shot at General Walker.
Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in his state I decided I had best leave him alone it would be purposeless to question him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say any more than that about the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"
He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. I don't know---I am not a criminologist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened that evening?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but there were no reports.
The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been killed.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he comment on that at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.
I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that
should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.
He said he would not repeat anything like that again.
By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.
You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

So LHO buried his rifle somewhere and then goes to retrieve it, only to re-use it again to assassinate JFK!

 snigger1



Online Ross Lidell

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Do you in all honesty believe Marina?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter occurred?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know better when this happened.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I began to be worried. Perhaps even later.
Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it--you know--I was pacing around. Then I saw a note there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you look for the gun at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, "If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the exact time, but it was very late. And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he had shot at General Walker.
Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in his state I decided I had best leave him alone it would be purposeless to question him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say any more than that about the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"
He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. I don't know---I am not a criminologist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened that evening?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but there were no reports.
The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been killed.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he comment on that at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.
I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that
should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.
He said he would not repeat anything like that again.
By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.
You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

So LHO buried his rifle somewhere and then goes to retrieve it, only to re-use it again to assassinate JFK!

 snigger1



You have not addressed the substance of the topic contained in the "Subject:" line.

Online Michael Capasse

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Do you in all honesty believe Marina?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter occurred?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know better when this happened.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I began to be worried. Perhaps even later.
Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it--you know--I was pacing around. Then I saw a note there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you look for the gun at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, "If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the exact time, but it was very late. And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he had shot at General Walker.
Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in his state I decided I had best leave him alone it would be purposeless to question him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say any more than that about the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"
He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. I don't know---I am not a criminologist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened that evening?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but there were no reports.
The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been killed.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he comment on that at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.
I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that
should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.
He said he would not repeat anything like that again.
By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.
You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

So LHO buried his rifle somewhere and then goes to retrieve it, only to re-use it again to assassinate JFK!

 snigger1


I know Tony...right...? piece of crap rifle...
why not buy a new one?

Online Tony Fratini

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You have not addressed the substance of the topic contained in the "Subject:" line.

However, in your conclusion you stated that LHO used the MC to assassinate General Walker. How do you know that? From Marina? A proven BS artist?

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