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Author Topic: Corroboration of Assassination films  (Read 7226 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2018, 03:48:06 AM »
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There is Nothing consistent regarding the Current Zapruder Film and the Sudden appearance of the JFK Limo on Elm St.  At No time did Zapruder testify that he stopped and started his filming of the JFK Motorcade.
Did Mr. Zapruder ever state that he did not start filming, stop and resume filming at Elm Street?

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In fact, Sitzman when interviewed by Tink Thompson for his groundbreaking "Six Seconds In Dallas",  revealed that their high ground position/the perch permitted them to see the JFK Limo coming down Houston St and then turning onto Elm St.
Really. Well, perhaps you can help identify some cars that were on Houston Street at the time of Zapruder frame 200 for me in the following picture:


Which one was Camera car number 1? Which one was Camera car number 2? Which one was Camera car number 3?

I?m having some trouble making them out? Oh, I get it, I can?t make them out because None of them are visible because most of Houston street is blocked by the North Reflecting Pool structure.

And from the following:

We can see that the Presidential limousine was still not visible when Mr. Zapruder stopped his camera.

This is a classic example as to why eyewitness testimony should not be accepted without question. It doesn?t matter if Ms. Sitzman said she could see the entire motorcade and all the way to Oklahoma from their high position if film and photographs from that position show that she is mistaken.

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2018, 03:48:06 AM »

Offline Royell Storing

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2018, 05:17:55 AM »
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Did Mr. Zapruder ever state that he did not start filming, stop and resume filming at Elm Street?
Really. Well, perhaps you can help identify some cars that were on Houston Street at the time of Zapruder frame 200 for me in the following picture:


Which one was Camera car number 1? Which one was Camera car number 2? Which one was Camera car number 3?

I?m having some trouble making them out? Oh, I get it, I can?t make them out because None of them are visible because most of Houston street is blocked by the North Reflecting Pool structure.

And from the following:

We can see that the Presidential limousine was still not visible when Mr. Zapruder stopped his camera.

This is a classic example as to why eyewitness testimony should not be accepted without question. It doesn?t matter if Ms. Sitzman said she could see the entire motorcade and all the way to Oklahoma from their high position if film and photographs from that position show that she is mistaken.

   Z Frame #133 is when the JFK Limo first POPS into the film. At that point Zapruder filmed the Queen Mary behind the Limo, as well as the LBJ Convertible beginning to make the turn onto Elm and the SS Follow-Up Car on Houston St. Frame 133 even shows Brennan seated atop the brick wall facing Houston St. This is what was visible through the view finder of Zapruder's camera. The Unrestricted view of the Naked Eyes of Zapruder and Sitzman would reveal even more. Sitzman was Not "mistaken". Try reviewing the Entire Zapruder Film.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 05:24:13 AM by Royell Storing »

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 09:28:50 AM »
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Did Mr. Zapruder ever state that he did not start filming, stop and resume filming at Elm Street?

No but he did say this.

"Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street."

As he didn't succeed in what he wanted to do, explain why.

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 09:28:50 AM »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 01:10:55 PM »
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Z Frame #133 is when the JFK Limo first POPS into the film. At that point Zapruder filmed the Queen Mary behind the Limo, as well as the LBJ Convertible beginning to make the turn onto Elm and the SS Follow-Up Car on Houston St. Frame 133 even shows Brennan seated atop the brick wall facing Houston St. This is what was visible through the view finder of Zapruder's camera. The Unrestricted view of the Naked Eyes of Zapruder and Sitzman would reveal even more. Sitzman was Not "mistaken". Try reviewing the Entire Zapruder Film.
Zapruder and Sitzman can only see vehicles along a short stretch of Houston Street, just before it turns on to Elm Street. They could not see the Presidential limousine along most of Houston Street until just before it turned onto Elm Street.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2018, 01:16:29 PM »
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No but he did say this.

"Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street."

As he didn't succeed in what he wanted to do, explain why.
Simple. He wasted 132 frames, about 7 seconds of film, expecting and hoping the limousine would come into view at any second. Film cameras in those days could only shoot for a minute or two before running out of film. And he had already used many seconds of film of his family and grandchildren. So, he came up with a new plan, to wait for the presidential limousine to get close to insure he does not run out of film just before the limousine gets closest to him.

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2018, 01:16:29 PM »

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2018, 02:03:56 PM »
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Simple. He wasted 132 frames, about 7 seconds of film, expecting and hoping the limousine would come into view at any second. Film cameras in those days could only shoot for a minute or two before running out of film. And he had already used many seconds of film of his family and grandchildren. So, he came up with a new plan, to wait for the presidential limousine to get close to insure he does not run out of film just before the limousine gets closest to him.

 He never said anything about stopping to save film. He said he wanted to get the procession coming into the street. It is only your conclusion, that he stopped filming.  Not quite simple.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2018, 03:29:32 PM »
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He never said anything about stopping to save film. He said he wanted to get the procession coming into the street. It is only your conclusion, that he stopped filming.  Not quite simple.
Mr. Zapruder never said anything about stopping to save film. He never said anything about loading the film into the camera. Or anything about removing the lens cap. But we can make logical deductions about what must have happened.
In the early 1960?s, inexpensive cameras could only film for a minute or two. And the film was expensive. We see the other films of Dealey Plaza typically just run for a few seconds and stop and then resume a few seconds later. There was a clear need to be thrifty with film. It is logical to assume that Mr. Zapruder felt the same.

One can imagine the conclusions you would come to if you used consistent logic.

You could conclude that there was no government conspiracy because no one in the government said they gave instructions to Oswald that were related to the assassination. You would conclude that Oswald was not being directed by a conspiracy because he made no statements saying that he brought a long package into work because he was directed to do so. Or that he went to the Texas Theater because he was directed to do so. You make all kinds of assumptions.

The difference between your assumptions and mine are that mine are reasonable. When I hear hoofs, I think horses. When you hear hoofs you think zebras, or even unicorns.

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2018, 03:29:32 PM »

Offline Royell Storing

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2018, 04:18:47 PM »
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Zapruder and Sitzman can only see vehicles along a short stretch of Houston Street, just before it turns on to Elm Street. They could not see the Presidential limousine along most of Houston Street until just before it turned onto Elm Street.

    Well, right off the bat You are NOW Admitting Zapruder and Sitzman could see down Houston St. This is progress. You have absolutely No Idea as to how far down Houston St they could see with their Naked Eyes. You are Now relying Only on what Zapruder's camera was Directly aimed at and captured through the restricted view of the view finder. Sitzman when interviewed by Tink Thompson clearly said they could see down Houston St as the motorcade approached. The Z Film with the restricted view supplied by the view finder shows us Brennan seated atop the wall that encircled the water pool. Brennan's seated position atop that wall was Down Houston Street.  Brennan being captured on the Restricted view of the Z Film tells us the Naked Eye would permit an even greater view down Houston St. This corroborates Sitzman.   

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2018, 04:18:47 PM »

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2018, 04:22:37 PM »
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Mr. Zapruder never said anything about stopping to save film. He never said anything about loading the film into the camera. Or anything about removing the lens cap. But we can make logical deductions about what must have happened.
Typical Lone nutter straw man argument.

Quote

In the early 1960?s, inexpensive cameras could only film for a minute or two. And the film was expensive. We see the other films of Dealey Plaza typically just run for a few seconds and stop and then resume a few seconds later. There was a clear need to be thrifty with film. It is logical to assume that Mr. Zapruder felt the same.

Only in your Lone nutter logic. The film didn't last just for a minute or two.

One can imagine the conclusions you would come to if you used consistent logic.

Quote
You could conclude that there was no government conspiracy because no one in the government said they gave instructions to Oswald that were related to the assassination. You would conclude that Oswald was not being directed by a conspiracy because he made no statements saying that he brought a long package into work because he was directed to do so. Or that he went to the Texas Theater because he was directed to do so. You make all kinds of assumptions.

You can conclude whatever you wish, Joe, and you will so long as it backs your position.

Quote

The difference between your assumptions and mine are that mine are reasonable. When I hear hoofs, I think horses. When you hear hoofs you think zebras, or even unicorns.

Methinks it is you who sees unicorns. You believe other fairy stories, like the Warren Report,  why not them?


"Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting - when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us what happened as you took these pictures.

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost - I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about - I imagine it was around here - I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area)."

If he as he stated, he wanted to get the motorcade coming in from Houston Street, why on earth would he stop filming?

And proof he didn't stop filming is that there is no underexposure of frame 133 which would have happened if he had started and restarted the camera at that point.

Offline Robin Unger

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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2018, 10:27:34 PM »
Look at the big picture, NOT just the Zapruder frames.

Exactly how far ahead of the limo were the three mororcycles. ?
Once the three motorcycles turned from Houston on to Elm, how long after would Zapruder have to wait before the limo arrived. ?


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Re: Corroboration of Assassination films
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2018, 10:27:34 PM »

 

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