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Author Topic: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242  (Read 28530 times)

Offline Nicholas Turner

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2018, 11:05:33 PM »
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How do you know where the people on the curb were relative to the Queen Mary?

I'm not claiming to know the relative position of those shown in the photography but imagine, if the photo included those level with the lead car then they would be on the far left, not behind Greer.

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Notice the woman whose face appears above the American flag.....Wouldn't you agree that she's looking a little to her right and looking directly at JFK ?   A line from that woman to JFK would pass behind Chaney.....   If Chaney were further back and near the RF fender of the QM the line would pass in front of him.

She doesn't seem to be looking at JFK to me. She almost seems to be looking at the camera.

Your shadow point again seems to depend on the distance between Chaney and the side of the second car.

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2018, 11:32:03 PM »
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It's sooooo obvious that the angle of the red line in the photo is much different than the angle of the red line drawn on the drawing that is supposed to depict the location of Chaney and his motorcycle.   

Using the shadow of the right upper edge of the car as base ( and the car is parallel with the street)  The red line is at about 110 degrees .....  That red line on the drawing is at about 162 degrees.....  The artist has attempted to move the motorcycle to the rear by depicting the angle as 162 degrees......
Walt, yes the line in the diagram is about twice that of the line in Altgens 6. But I see others problems that make the comparison invalid. First, Altgens was not directly in front of the limo and that decreases the perceived angle considerably. It is much less than you would see from directly in front of the limo
Second, anytime you take an overhead view and compare it to a photo taken at ground level the angles change. The angle you see from overhead will always be less than the angle you see from any other view.  As an example taken from the backyard photos Oswalds shadow appears about 2 1/2 times greater than it would be from above because Marina was about 10 to 12 feet away and at about 4 feet high. I have duplicated this perspective and the large difference in perceived angles make comparison impossible unless you take the perspective into account. 
 Third, the comparison can show you the line of sight from Altgens but it does not tell you where along that line that Chaney is positioned. You could move him forward a bit in the overhead diagram while keeping him on that line of sight and end up with Chaney next to the limo.
 The closest we can come to locating Chaney's position is to do a line of sight from above. Using the West map I found Chaney could not be next to JFK because the line of sight puts him within  about one foot of the lime which is too close. His bike would be be in contact with the limo.
 One other note for anyone doing an LOS for the limo or Chaney in Altgens 6. The West map shows the lane marker next to the limo's left front tire in the wrong location. An old overhead photo I found shows that the lane marker was mis aligned with the marker next to it by about 6 feet! So if you used that lane marker to get an LOS it will place Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb than the West map puts him. His location in the West map is correct but tat lane marker is not.

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2018, 11:32:03 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2018, 12:49:04 AM »
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Walt, yes the line in the diagram is about twice that of the line in Altgens 6. But I see others problems that make the comparison invalid. First, Altgens was not directly in front of the limo and that decreases the perceived angle considerably. It is much less than you would see from directly in front of the limo
Second, anytime you take an overhead view and compare it to a photo taken at ground level the angles change. The angle you see from overhead will always be less than the angle you see from any other view.  As an example taken from the backyard photos Oswalds shadow appears about 2 1/2 times greater than it would be from above because Marina was about 10 to 12 feet away and at about 4 feet high. I have duplicated this perspective and the large difference in perceived angles make comparison impossible unless you take the perspective into account. 
 Third, the comparison can show you the line of sight from Altgens but it does not tell you where along that line that Chaney is positioned. You could move him forward a bit in the overhead diagram while keeping him on that line of sight and end up with Chaney next to the limo.
 The closest we can come to locating Chaney's position is to do a line of sight from above. Using the West map I found Chaney could not be next to JFK because the line of sight puts him within  about one foot of the lime which is too close. His bike would be be in contact with the limo.
 One other note for anyone doing an LOS for the limo or Chaney in Altgens 6. The West map shows the lane marker next to the limo's left front tire in the wrong location. An old overhead photo I found shows that the lane marker was mis aligned with the marker next to it by about 6 feet! So if you used that lane marker to get an LOS it will place Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb than the West map puts him. His location in the West map is correct but tat lane marker is not.

Referring to the West map.....  It's possible to align several points with the obelisk ( or whatever that concrete column is called) that is seen behind Chaney in Altgen's #6....  By drawing lines from known points on the south face of the  TSBD through that obelisk It's possible to place the various objects in Altgen's #6 .

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2018, 01:03:20 AM »
Another way to estimate Chaney's position relative to the limo is to compare his image size with Hargis and Martin. You have to compare vertical measurements because the horizontal shrinks as you view them from the side, so Chaney's width is a little less. I cut and pasted comparing the distance from the headlight to the windshield crossbar and to the top of the windshield. Chaney's image is a little bigger than Martins and is almost the same as Hargis's image. So Chaney is at about the same distance to the camera as Hargis.
 Even though Hargis and Martin are almost the same distance from the camera(Martin is maybe 2 feet farther away) Martin's image is noticeably smaller than Hargis.  Chaney's image is almost the same size as Hargis' we can assume, based on the large difference between Hargis and Martin, that Chaney and Hargis are at the same distance give or take just a few inches.. Because of the angle Chaney is about 2 feet closer to the back of the limo than Hargis if he is the same distance from the camera.
Hargis looks like he is at least 2 feet from the back of the limo so Chaney should be right at the rear bumper. The only way for Chaney to be next to JFK is if Hargis is riding next to the rear wheel, but he is way behind it.

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2018, 01:03:20 AM »

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2018, 01:08:05 AM »
Walt, yes I did that aligning the lane marker with the pillar and the TSBD and the lamppost and TSBD. But because the lane marker in the West map is wrong I spent a month or so placing Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb, which is wrong. Once I found the photo showing the lane marker is actually 6 feet farther down the street everything made sense.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2018, 02:19:20 AM »
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Walt, yes I did that aligning the lane marker with the pillar and the TSBD and the lamppost and TSBD. But because the lane marker in the West map is wrong I spent a month or so placing Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb, which is wrong. Once I found the photo showing the lane marker is actually 6 feet farther down the street everything made sense.

Chris What sites on the TSBD did you use as the anchor point for the north end of the lines that passed through the Obelisk (pylon)?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 02:23:25 AM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2018, 02:19:20 AM »

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2018, 04:26:31 AM »
Walt, the 4th window from the left is visible behind the lamppost's globe. The obelisk is only wide enough to block one column of windows to the left of the entrance so it has to be the 4th column behind the lamp post. The brick outcrop next to the 4th window gives us Chaney and the pillar at the entrance give us JFK.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2018, 01:34:37 PM »
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Walt, the 4th window from the left is visible behind the lamppost's globe. The obelisk is only wide enough to block one column of windows to the left of the entrance so it has to be the 4th column behind the lamp post. The brick outcrop next to the 4th window gives us Chaney and the pillar at the entrance give us JFK.

Ah....Therein lies the problem......Perhaps we can sort this out ....I believe that you're correct the the fourth set of windows is behind the lamppost....  BUT the third set of windows is NOT  "BLOCKED OUT" by the concrete pylon.  The third set of windows on the second floor, is visible in the background above the pylon. And the center divider ( mullion) in that third set of windows is an excellent anchor point for a line from the TSBD, through the pylon, through the Lincoln hood ornament to the camera.  Chaney is seen to the left ( West) of that line.

I'm sure that the TSBD window that is visible above the concrete pylon is the THIRD set of windows...

Using the plat that was created by the Surveyor Robert West  .......And working very carefully to be as precise as possible,  We can locate the middle of the third set of windows and draw a line through the pylon and on across Elm street .    James Algens was at the Elm street curb at the southern end of the line drawn.   

Incidentally.... I wouldn't bet the farm that the traffic divider line is located where someone says it is.......You may recall that the back wound was conveniently moved up to JFK's neck......  so moving a traffic divider line is no problem....





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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2018, 01:34:37 PM »

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2018, 04:19:24 PM »
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How do you know where the people on the curb were relative to the Queen Mary?

Notice the woman whose face appears above the American flag.....Wouldn't you agree that she's looking a little to her right and looking directly at JFK ?   A line from that woman to JFK would pass behind Chaney.....   If Chaney were further back and near the RF fender of the QM the line would pass in front of him.   



You'll notice that the shadows of Hargis and Martin are cast slightly to the rear of a right angle (90 degrees)  Their shadows fall at about 10 degrees to the rear of 90 degrees IOW their shadows fall at about 100 degrees.  The same would be true for Chaney......  So IF  Chaney's Shadow fell slightly BEHIND his right side it would not be visible on the surface of Elm street if he was near the fender of the QM.

     This Altgens photo certainly did Not distort the position of the Hard Hat Guy standing next to the light pole. He held that same general position before, during & immediately following the assassination. Using the Hard Hat Guy as a Landmark is useful in this discussion.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2018, 05:41:54 PM »
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     This Altgens photo certainly did Not distort the position of the Hard Hat Guy standing next to the light pole. He held that same general position before, during & immediately following the assassination. Using the Hard Hat Guy as a Landmark is useful in this discussion.

Royell....I'm looking for feedback on my post ..... It's possible to accurately place the Lincoln on Elm street by using Robert West's plat of Dealy Plaza and the Altgens photo..... And it's possible to place Chaney alongside the Lincoln.

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Re: Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2018, 05:41:54 PM »

 

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