Chaney's motorcycle in Zapruder frame Z-242

[Nicholas Turner]

LOOK at the photo and think about it.....If Chaney had been beside the right front fender of the QM he would appear behind ( over the right shoulder) of the driver, (William Greer) of the Lincoln in the Altgen's photo.

That depends on how far to the left of the car he was doesn't it? The people on the side of the road level with the rear car aren't behind Greer.

[Walt Cakebread]

That depends on how far to the left of the car he was doesn't it? The people on the side of the road level with the rear car aren't behind Greer.

How do you know where the people on the curb were relative to the Queen Mary?

Notice the woman whose face appears above the American flag.....Wouldn't you agree that she's looking a little to her right and looking directly at JFK ?   A line from that woman to JFK would pass behind Chaney.....   If Chaney were further back and near the RF fender of the QM the line would pass in front of him.   



You'll notice that the shadows of Hargis and Martin are cast slightly to the rear of a right angle (90 degrees)  Their shadows fall at about 10 degrees to the rear of 90 degrees IOW their shadows fall at about 100 degrees.  The same would be true for Chaney......  So IF  Chaney's Shadow fell slightly BEHIND his right side it would not be visible on the surface of Elm street if he was near the fender of the QM.

[Nicholas Turner]

How do you know where the people on the curb were relative to the Queen Mary?

I'm not claiming to know the relative position of those shown in the photography but imagine, if the photo included those level with the lead car then they would be on the far left, not behind Greer.

Notice the woman whose face appears above the American flag.....Wouldn't you agree that she's looking a little to her right and looking directly at JFK ?   A line from that woman to JFK would pass behind Chaney.....   If Chaney were further back and near the RF fender of the QM the line would pass in front of him.

She doesn't seem to be looking at JFK to me. She almost seems to be looking at the camera.

Your shadow point again seems to depend on the distance between Chaney and the side of the second car.

[Chris Bristow]

It's sooooo obvious that the angle of the red line in the photo is much different than the angle of the red line drawn on the drawing that is supposed to depict the location of Chaney and his motorcycle.   

Using the shadow of the right upper edge of the car as base ( and the car is parallel with the street)  The red line is at about 110 degrees .....  That red line on the drawing is at about 162 degrees.....  The artist has attempted to move the motorcycle to the rear by depicting the angle as 162 degrees......

Walt, yes the line in the diagram is about twice that of the line in Altgens 6. But I see others problems that make the comparison invalid. First, Altgens was not directly in front of the limo and that decreases the perceived angle considerably. It is much less than you would see from directly in front of the limo
Second, anytime you take an overhead view and compare it to a photo taken at ground level the angles change. The angle you see from overhead will always be less than the angle you see from any other view.  As an example taken from the backyard photos Oswalds shadow appears about 2 1/2 times greater than it would be from above because Marina was about 10 to 12 feet away and at about 4 feet high. I have duplicated this perspective and the large difference in perceived angles make comparison impossible unless you take the perspective into account. 
 Third, the comparison can show you the line of sight from Altgens but it does not tell you where along that line that Chaney is positioned. You could move him forward a bit in the overhead diagram while keeping him on that line of sight and end up with Chaney next to the limo.
 The closest we can come to locating Chaney's position is to do a line of sight from above. Using the West map I found Chaney could not be next to JFK because the line of sight puts him within  about one foot of the lime which is too close. His bike would be be in contact with the limo.
 One other note for anyone doing an LOS for the limo or Chaney in Altgens 6. The West map shows the lane marker next to the limo's left front tire in the wrong location. An old overhead photo I found shows that the lane marker was mis aligned with the marker next to it by about 6 feet! So if you used that lane marker to get an LOS it will place Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb than the West map puts him. His location in the West map is correct but tat lane marker is not.

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, yes the line in the diagram is about twice that of the line in Altgens 6. But I see others problems that make the comparison invalid. First, Altgens was not directly in front of the limo and that decreases the perceived angle considerably. It is much less than you would see from directly in front of the limo
Second, anytime you take an overhead view and compare it to a photo taken at ground level the angles change. The angle you see from overhead will always be less than the angle you see from any other view.  As an example taken from the backyard photos Oswalds shadow appears about 2 1/2 times greater than it would be from above because Marina was about 10 to 12 feet away and at about 4 feet high. I have duplicated this perspective and the large difference in perceived angles make comparison impossible unless you take the perspective into account. 
 Third, the comparison can show you the line of sight from Altgens but it does not tell you where along that line that Chaney is positioned. You could move him forward a bit in the overhead diagram while keeping him on that line of sight and end up with Chaney next to the limo.
 The closest we can come to locating Chaney's position is to do a line of sight from above. Using the West map I found Chaney could not be next to JFK because the line of sight puts him within  about one foot of the lime which is too close. His bike would be be in contact with the limo.
 One other note for anyone doing an LOS for the limo or Chaney in Altgens 6. The West map shows the lane marker next to the limo's left front tire in the wrong location. An old overhead photo I found shows that the lane marker was mis aligned with the marker next to it by about 6 feet! So if you used that lane marker to get an LOS it will place Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb than the West map puts him. His location in the West map is correct but tat lane marker is not.

Referring to the West map.....  It's possible to align several points with the obelisk ( or whatever that concrete column is called) that is seen behind Chaney in Altgen's #6....  By drawing lines from known points on the south face of the  TSBD through that obelisk It's possible to place the various objects in Altgen's #6 .

[Chris Bristow]

Another way to estimate Chaney's position relative to the limo is to compare his image size with Hargis and Martin. You have to compare vertical measurements because the horizontal shrinks as you view them from the side, so Chaney's width is a little less. I cut and pasted comparing the distance from the headlight to the windshield crossbar and to the top of the windshield. Chaney's image is a little bigger than Martins and is almost the same as Hargis's image. So Chaney is at about the same distance to the camera as Hargis.
 Even though Hargis and Martin are almost the same distance from the camera(Martin is maybe 2 feet farther away) Martin's image is noticeably smaller than Hargis.  Chaney's image is almost the same size as Hargis' we can assume, based on the large difference between Hargis and Martin, that Chaney and Hargis are at the same distance give or take just a few inches.. Because of the angle Chaney is about 2 feet closer to the back of the limo than Hargis if he is the same distance from the camera.
Hargis looks like he is at least 2 feet from the back of the limo so Chaney should be right at the rear bumper. The only way for Chaney to be next to JFK is if Hargis is riding next to the rear wheel, but he is way behind it.

[Chris Bristow]

Walt, yes I did that aligning the lane marker with the pillar and the TSBD and the lamppost and TSBD. But because the lane marker in the West map is wrong I spent a month or so placing Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb, which is wrong. Once I found the photo showing the lane marker is actually 6 feet farther down the street everything made sense.

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, yes I did that aligning the lane marker with the pillar and the TSBD and the lamppost and TSBD. But because the lane marker in the West map is wrong I spent a month or so placing Altgens 4 feet closer to the curb, which is wrong. Once I found the photo showing the lane marker is actually 6 feet farther down the street everything made sense.

Chris What sites on the TSBD did you use as the anchor point for the north end of the lines that passed through the Obelisk (pylon)?